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Hell in a Handbasket.

Posted by rogue4jcFor group 0
Heath
player, 969 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Wed 17 Nov 2004
at 02:56
  • msg #36

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

The word "hell" is encountered 54 times in the Bible.  In looking them over, every Old Testament reference appears to point to a metaphorical state of being or something similar (such as equating war with hell), but nothing stating that there is a literal hell that people will be cast into if they disobey or do not go through the Messiah.

In the New Testament, "hell" is used more frequently.  It seems to expand and say that, yes, there is a devil and he resides in a literal "hell."  It talks about the damnation of hell and hell fire related to punishment.

Since the New Testament is written in Greek instead of Hebrew, you find that the word translated as "hell" is actually "hades."  The usage of this word is defined as follows:

"In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions, a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of the wicked, Lu."

So they will go to the "abode of the wicked" is the best translation.  This isn't necessarily the same as the image of "hell" being propounded today.
TheMidnightPhoenix
player, 19 posts
Fri 19 Nov 2004
at 06:10
  • msg #37

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

My take on this is that living through Jesus means that you live the life of compassion that he taught. One of my favorite quotes is that of a friend of mine who follows an old native american religion: "One of the largest ways the Great Spirit shows off is by providing the world with so many ways to worship him."


A side note to something Heath said, I believe that the Bible actually says that the devil currently resides on Earth but after judgement day will be cast into the lake of sulfer and fire (hell). I could be wrong though.
Heath
player, 977 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Fri 19 Nov 2004
at 06:20
  • msg #38

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

quote:
A side note to something Heath said, I believe that the Bible actually says that the devil currently resides on Earth but after judgement day will be cast into the lake of sulfer and fire (hell). I could be wrong though.

My memory is that it says Satan is "loosed upon the earth" and will return to "hell" upon Jesus' second coming, and then he will be loosed for a short period again before the final ending of the earth's final millenium.

As far as what the "lake" is and all that, the Jewish heritage is rich with metaphors and images, so it is not to be taken literally -- it is basically a place of neverending unhappiness and misery.
Paulos
player, 153 posts
Don't let society
force you into it's mold
Thu 25 Nov 2004
at 13:48
  • msg #39

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

And just to clarify, I think that the greek language also has hell as another word for like a dump.  Need to look this up, but I've heard from a couple different people that they called places of trash outside of major towns that had perpetually burning fires hell as well.

revelations 20:15:
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire


It says there quite clearly what is going to happen to those who's name is not written in the book of life.

The idea presented in the Bible is that there are two deaths, The first death most everyone will experence eventually the seperation of the soul from the body (dying) the second death only those who are not in the afore mentioned catigory will experence (being cast into the lake of fire at the 2nd comming)

As a rule I don't buy this "not to be taken litterally" stuff, the only time I really consider it is when the Bible seems to contradict itself if taken litterally which is a bit rarely, that being said, I think some of the stuff in reverlation may be symbolic, but also just as valid could be that there actually are some of the funky creatures described that will be comming in the end times.

luke 16:
19   There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20   And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21   And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22   And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23   And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24   And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25   But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26   And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27   Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28   For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29   Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30   And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31   And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

heath:
Since Jesus was a Jew and never mentioned Hell...
Read the above and tell me again that Jesus never mentioned hell.
This message was last edited by the player at 14:03, Thu 25 Nov 2004.
Heath
player, 985 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Fri 26 Nov 2004
at 02:14
  • msg #40

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

The word "gehenna" is probably what you are referring to.  It means the eternal abode of the lost in the Lake of Fire.  Tartaroo (from "tartaros") is also used in the New Testament.

"Sheol" is the word used in the Old Testament.

So there are 4 words in the entire Bible describing Hell (3 in NT and one in OT):  Hades, Gehenna, Tartaroo, and Sheol.  The total usage of all these words together in the entire Bible is about 90 times.

Sheol was used 64 times in the OT, translated as hell 31 times, grave 30 times, and pit 3 times.

Gehenna is used 12 times in the NT and always translated as "hell."  The Greek Hades is used 11 times and translated as hell 10 times and grave 1 time.  Tartaroo is used one time and is translated as "hell."

"Hell" is the predominant translation, but there is no equivalent word in Greek or Hebrew:

quote:
I guess we should begin with an understanding of that word. The first thing we need to know is that the English word hell has no equivalent in either the Greek or the Hebrew. Actually the word is a Saxon word, hell or helle. We also find a similar word in the German, Dutch, Danish, and Swedish languages. I always like to have a definition of any word we study, and so turning to my trusty Webster's dictionary of 1828, I found the following among the definitions of hell:

"The place of the dead, or of souls after death; the lower regions, or the grave; called in the Hebrew Sheol, and by the Greek, Hades. Psalm 16. Jon 2."
And that my friends, seems to be the standard definition of the word. Notice that in the definition while we see that hell is a place of the dead, it also says it is a place for "souls after death." So, on one hand, we have the dead residing in hell, but in saying souls reside there, we have the implication of the doctrine of the immortal soul.


The English word "hell" comes from the name of the underworld goddess: Hel, from Norse mythology, who was Loki's daughter, goddess of death and the underworld to which those who did not die in battle were sent.

The "burning" and "fire" you see in the Bible generally refer to "thoroughness."   Imagine you are a blacksmith forging a weapon...or even a doctor.  You use the fire to thoroughly mold the weapon to your use on one hand, and a doctor, especially in ancient times, would use fire to cleanse.

In the OT, Sheol is used as a figure of speech to describe the depths to which judgment will reach on the people of Israel.  (See Deut. 32: 21-25.)  (Anyone who knows about Jewish tradition will tell you that figures of speech are common and have great poetic imagery.)

Did Jacob go to hell?
quote:
Genesis 37:35:
35 "... all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.

Sheol is translated as "grave" here, even though sometimes it is translated as "hell" elsewhere in the OT.  (Remember, 31 times as "hell," 30 times as "grave," and 3 times as "pit." -- even though it's the same Hebrew word!)

So where do we get the word "hades" in the NT?
quote:
What happened was that some 300 years before the Christian era, The Hebrew was translated into the Greek language into what we call the Septuagint, and in making this translation, the translators were not comfortable with leaving well enough alone and leave the Hebrew word Sheol un-translated. No, they had to translate Sheol into the Greek word "Hades." And of the sixty-four instances where Sheol occurs in the Hebrew, it is rendered as Hades in the Greek Septuagint sixty times. The effect of that was, from that time forth, the words became equivalent to one another, and so Sheol became Hades and Hades became Sheol.

But what an injustice to the word of God. If the translators had just left well enough alone, then today, we would only read the word "Sheol," in our Old Testaments, and people would not get Dante's inferno type visions when they see the word Sheol. But, alas we are stuck with the problem, and no amount of teaching on the part of people such as myself is ever going to rectify the situation.


In effect, every time you see the word "hell" in the OT, you can translate it as "grave."  It refers to Sheol, or place of the dead, or the unseen; figuratively, it refers to the political, social, moral or spiritual consequences of wickedness in the present world..

quote:
Revelation 20:13-14:
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Now, if the "sea" gives up its dead, if death and hell deliver up their dead, what is the status of hell?  If you believe everyone is resurrected and thus alive, then hell has been emptied.

Further, Jesus visited "hell", which was terminated by his resurrection.  This will make more sense if you realize that it means the place where the dead go.

quote:
But anyhow, since those delivered out of death and hell are next judged, and since it is also said that "death and hell" are cast into the lake of fire, what are we to conclude? Are we to conclude that the lake of fire is a symbolic expression for judgment? I would think so. And why? Well, because we are dealing with intangible conditions here -- those conditions being death and Hades, and I would ask, how can you cast intangibles into a literal lake, be it a lake of fire or a lake of water? If that be the case, then casting death and hell into the lake of fire would symbolize their destruction since they have been emptied of their last inhabitant. In other words, casting death and hell into the lake of fire is their judgment.

Now if this not be the case, then we have a new problem. If this lake of fire is to be literal, and if people are judged and thrown into it, then the lake of fire becomes hell, and that cannot be because we have just read that death and hell have been destroyed, and if destroyed, then they no longer exist, and if they no longer exist, then people cannot be in them.

Paul confirms this for us in 1 Corinthians 15:26 when he says:


"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

Heath
player, 986 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Fri 26 Nov 2004
at 02:26
  • msg #41

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

Specifically about the rich man and Lazarus, here are a couple of commentaries:

quote:
The story of he rich man in hell and Lazarus in Abraham's bosom in Luke 16:19-31 was not told by Christ to show what happens to people when they die, because before He told this story, He had declared in plain language that the wicked would not be cast into the fire until the end of the world (Matt 13:40-42), and that every man would be rewarded at His second coming. Matt. 16:27. This story harmonized with the ideas which the Pharisees had of the hereafter, and was given to rebuke them for their covetousness in teaching that riches are a mark of God's favor, and that poverty is a mark of His curse.


quote:
"The conversation between Abraham and the once-rich man is figurative. The lesson to be gathered from it is that every man is given sufficient light for the discharge of the duties required of him. Man's responsibilities are proportionate to his opportunities and privileges. God gives to every one sufficient light and grace to do the work He has given him to do. If man fails to do that which a little light shows to be his duty, greater light would only reveal unfaithfulness, neglect to improve the blessings given. 'He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much; and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.' Luke 16:10. Those who refuse to be enlightened by Moses and the prophets and ask for some wonderful miracle to be performed would not be convinced if their wish were granted."


In fact, here's a site dedicated to this parable and showing why it should be taken figuratively and not literally: http://tentmaker.org/books/Lazarus.html
Its conclusion:
quote:
And we have as we believe, clearly and fully proved, that he used it solely and exclusively to show the effects of the rejection of the gospel of the Jews, and its acceptance by the Gentiles--that it has no allusion to the future state of existence.

This message was last edited by the player at 02:43, Fri 26 Nov 2004.
Heath
player, 988 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Fri 26 Nov 2004
at 02:50
  • msg #42

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

A couple other cute things about hell:

http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/teeth.htm
Heath
player, 992 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Fri 26 Nov 2004
at 05:41
  • msg #43

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

The idea of "eternal damnation" and such things was not part of the early Christian thought, even of Origen, one of the founders of Christian thought (and the originator of the Trinity belief).  Instead, they believed that the punishments of hell were to cleanse the wicked and turn them to good, not to eternally punish them.  Quite frankly, I'm surprised that the "eternal punishment" issue still survives despite its relative newness as a matter of dogma.

For a deeper discussion, see: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EarlyChristianView.html

quote:
When one looks at the first 500 years of Christianity, not one creed even hinted at "Eternal Torment;" not one creed denied "Universal Restoration;" no church council condemned "Universal Restoration" in the first several centuries.

When one looks at the early Church's leaders and at which ones exhibited the nature of Christ's love, one will find that the vast majority embraced the "Salvation of All Mankind." When one looks at the lives of those church leaders who brought the doctrine of "Eternal Torment" into the church, we find a long string of envyings, power plays, persecutions, character assassinations, book burnings, murders, and tortures. They became like the God they created--tormentors! Their story is for another article. They exchanged the truth for a lie and brought darkness to the world--the Dark Ages. Remember them? Idolatry, corruption, rewritten history, inquisitions, crusades, relics (cutting up dead bodies of Saints and making money off of them as good luck charms), indulgences (selling certificates to sin), pogroms, witch hunts, Mary worship, corrupt popes, and torment--much torment--all in the name of Jesus Christ.

The list above is not a list of abuses of the religions of the heathen--it is a much shortened list of the horrible acts and beliefs of the church! The church became so corrupt that it declared it a sin for a believer to have a Bible. For those of you who are not Roman Catholic and feel that the above list does not pertain to your denominational church history, I want to remind you of the fact that the two leading reformators of the Protestant movement, John Calvin and Martin Luther, were great admirers of the "Champion of Eternal Torment," that is, St. Augustine. As a matter of fact, Martin Luther was an Augustinian monk, and John Calvin was the main instrument in bringing back to life the "Predestination Doctrine" of Augustine, which said that God preplanned the majority of mankind to eternal torment and there was nothing a person could do to change his lot!


TO ANSWER THE MAIN QUESTION POSED BY THIS THREAD:  Yes, all non-Christians will go to hell.  However, all Christians will also go to hell.  This is because the "hell" of the Bible is a place that all the dead go before resurrection (i.e. the "grave").
This message was last edited by the player at 05:45, Fri 26 Nov 2004.
Heath
player, 993 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Fri 26 Nov 2004
at 05:51
  • msg #44

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

Another quote from the article above:

quote:
In the King James in Matthew 25:46 it reads, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal." The same verse in Rotherham's Emphasized Bible reads, "And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life." Although the Rotherham Bible is one of the 26 translations, the publishers, Baker Book House, did not show that Joseph Rotherham's translation radically disagrees with the King James Bible even though that was the very purpose of the book. They did not want the public to know that there were some major doctrinal differences among translations so they just pretended that they were not there. A reader of that book will think that Rotherham agrees with the King James, because the above Rotherham verse was not listed, when just the opposite is true. I know of more than a dozen Bible translations written in the last 200 years that significantly disagree with the King James Bible on this verse.

Heath
player, 994 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Fri 26 Nov 2004
at 06:17
  • msg #45

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

Paulos:
As a rule I don't buy this "not to be taken litterally" stuff


Figurative language abounds in the Bible.  Example:  "Let the dead bury the dead."  Matt 8:22.  This obviously is not literal.  It is figurative with the first "dead" and literal with the second "dead."  So you see the beautiful poetic image that flows from this in getting across principles.

It is important to remember that Jesus taught by way of principle, which is almost always an intangible idea made clear through analogy and figurative language.  That's why "he taught them in parables."  He taught them higher principles by using their understandings.  If he had ignored their understandings, they would not have heeded him.  And the way to bridge the gap is through figurative language and parable.  So the New Testament of all things has a lot of figurative language.

And the fact that Paul, who wrote about half of the New Testament books, never once mentions "hell" shows that Jesus did not preach about hell in any literal manner.

And you quote Revelations as proof for the literalness of the Bible?????

Paulos:
revelations 20:15:
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire


It says there quite clearly what is going to happen to those who's name is not written in the book of life. 

Revelations is one of the most figurative language portions of the Bible, talking about dragons and the horsemen of the Apocalypse.  It is almost all allegory and figurative examples to warn the righteous.  So to me it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to quote Revelations as proof of anything "literal" in the Bible.
This message was last edited by the player at 06:17, Fri 26 Nov 2004.
Paulos
player, 155 posts
Don't let society
force you into it's mold
Sat 27 Nov 2004
at 07:54
  • msg #46

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

heath:
In fact, here's a site dedicated to this parable and showing why it should be taken figuratively and not literally: http://tentmaker.org/books/Lazarus.html


Even if it's taken figuratively, the meaning is still the same, if someone rejects God and passes in the next life there is no second chance.  I'm my opinion it's really bad herminutics to say that this passage has nothing to do with life death and hell, hades, sheol or whatever you want to call it.

heath:
And you quote Revelations as proof for the literalness of the Bible?????

Paulos typed:
revelations 20:15 typed:
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire


It says there quite clearly what is going to happen to those who's name is not written in the book of life.

Revelations is one of the most figurative language portions of the Bible, talking about dragons and the horsemen of the Apocalypse.  It is almost all allegory and figurative examples to warn the righteous.  So to me it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to quote Revelations as proof of anything "literal" in the Bible.


I do, I for one think that this passage makes quite a bit of sense to be litteral, I've already quoted luke 16 which has one of the more descriptive accounts of hell in the Bible.

I will have to look into the sheol being translated into grave a bit more, maybe sometimes it is, but does that mean every time it is?  If we take out the word hell in every english translation of the OT and replace it with grave will it still make sense?

I've got to go back to work but I'll edit this post later...
This message was last edited by the player at 08:09, Sat 27 Nov 2004.
Heath
player, 998 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Sat 27 Nov 2004
at 08:19
  • msg #47

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

The hermeutics work beautifully.  You simply misunderstand what it meant.  Of course, it is talking about death and the gulf between the wicked and righteous.  But the terms used to describe them are figurative to teach the principle he meant to teach, and that is completely consistent with the rest of the Bible, especially the portions where he taught in parables, as he did in this case.  I think the sources I cited speak for themselves.  It seems very clear to me.

Especially when you substitute "grave" or the place after death instead of "hell."  It doesn't say anything about not having another chance.  In the Jewish tradition, the rich man was awaiting judgment still, not yet resurrected.  It is the state of sin that is the "hell."

It is also a very good testament that our actions on this earth are important.  Simple faith is not enough, for as long as we remain in sin, we suffer the fate of being sinful...and the greater the sins, the greater the inner torment.

___

As for Revelations, you stated it backwards.  You are telling me that it is literal, and I am saying with so much of Revelations being figurative, you cannot say with any convincing authority that any part of it is literal.  To turn that and say we cannot prove that any of it is figurative isn't important because I'm not the one trying to show it's literal.  How can it be proven literal?

The "Lake of Fire" is also discussed about its historical origin in the sites above, so the Revelations quote is not really a persuasive argument for literalness.

Truthfully, "hell" should be replaced with the word "Sheol," not grave.  There is no English equivalent that I'm aware of, and having a unique term consistent throughout the Bible is a better system, especially since it is the "place of the dead," not a literal burning, fiery pit.  But as the site I pointed out above shows, there were Christian forces at work around 500 AD that caused the mistranslation to enter into English for political and other reasons.
Paulos
player, 156 posts
Don't let society
force you into it's mold
Sat 27 Nov 2004
at 11:20
  • msg #48

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

matthew 25:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
   And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
   Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
...
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Why would Jesus talk about something like everlasting life and everlasting punishment... it seems really obvious to me that hell is not just the grave even if that is one way the word sheol can be translated, using the Bible to interpret the Bible...
Heath
player, 999 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Sun 28 Nov 2004
at 11:15
  • msg #49

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

Part of that is a translation error for the Greek word aionios, which can mean either temporary or permanent -- literally "age-lasting".

Also, Jesus talks in that passage about after Judgment.  The wicked who are judged in their sins die the second death, meaning that they cannot return to the Kingdom of God.  So naturally they go somewhere else.  Looked at in the manner it was intended shows that there is a punishment, but the Greek word translated as "punishment" is "kolasis," which literally means a "pruning," usually meant "to keep within bounds."  So they die within the constraints and bounds of their sins.  To be more consistent with the rest of the Bible, it would better be translated as "cut off" from the presence of God.

So you have a period of time, either everlasting or temporary, where they are cut off from God.

One of the difficulties with the New Testament is the change that occurred when the original Hebrew was translated into the Greek (which was then translated into English).  So you have problems with translation into Greek at the time of the Septuagint, and then problems when the Greek is translated into English.

quote:
Matthew 25:46
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment."

Problem:
This passage is used to prove the eternal torment of the wicked. It is argued, that since the same Greek word, "aionios" is used for the duration of life for the righteous as for the punishment of the wicked, therefore the wicked are subject to eternal torment.

Solution:
The punishment is everlasting, but it is not conscious eternal torment. The punishment will be final and complete cutting off. (Psa. 37:9, 34). Life eternal is reserved for the righteous, but the wicked are to die "the second death" (Rev. 21:8) which in Scriptural terms means to be without thoughts. (Psa. 146:3,4; Eccl. 9:5). The word "everlasting" is used of a result, not a process. Similarly, "eternal judgment" (Heb. 6:2) and "eternal redemption" (Heb. 9:12) do not mean that judgment and redemption will continue throughout eternity, but rather that their results are eternal.

The wicked are to suffer torment at the Judgment Day (Matt. 8:12; 13:30, 40-42, 49-50; Luke 12:47,48), but this is not eternal torment. Other Scriptures either state or imply a termination of the torment. For example:
Speaking of those who "know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ", the Apostle Paul states that they "shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power." (2 Thess. 1:9).
Jesus stated that "if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6). To be "cast forth as a branch" and "burned" suggests termination of the burning when that which is burnable is consumed.
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake . . . to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan. 12:2 cf. Jn. 5:29). It is the contempt or damnation which is everlasting, not the conscious torment.

Even if by "everlasting punishment" is meant "everlasting conscious torment", this passage in itself does not prove the eternal torment of the wicked since the Greek word, "aionios", can mean either limited or unlimited duration.1 Although the New Testament nearly always uses "aionios" with the meaning of unlimited duration,2 there are a number of occurrences in the Septuagint3 (where the Hebrew equivalent "olam" is translated "aionios") in which a limited duration is obviously intended. For example:
"The lasting [aionios] hills"; "The eternal God is thy refuge and underneath are the everlasting [aionios] arms." (Deut. 33:15,27). The intended meaning of "aionios" is limited duration in the first reference whereas in the same chapter the second reference is to unlimited duration.
The Aaronic priesthood is termed, "an everlasting [aionios] priesthood throughout their generation." (Exod. 40:15). Limited duration is intended in this reference since the Aaronic priesthood was later to change (Heb. 7:12) when that which "waxed old" was ready to "vanish away". (Heb. 8:13).
See also Gen. 49:26; Exod. 12:17; 21:6; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6 ("perpetual" hills = "aionios" hills).

Many passages in Scripture teach that eternal life is the reward for the righteous (e.g. Luke 20:35,36). There are also many passages which teach that the ungodly and wicked will be destroyed or perish (e.g. 1 Thess. 4:13 cf. John 3:16; 2 Thess. 1:9). It is not therefore, merely an arbitrary decision to choose endless duration for "aionios" life of the righteous and limited duration for "aionios" punishment of the wicked. The decision has been based on the use of the Greek word elsewhere in Scripture and the teaching of other passages on the respective rewards of the righteous and wicked.

The word "punishment" is translated from the Greek word, "kolasis" which means "a pruning". It comes from the verb, "kolazo" which means "to curtail, dock, prune, but usually like Lat., 'castigare' to keep within bounds, check, chastise."4 This denotation is in complete harmony with the Scriptural teaching on the punishment of the wicked. Jesus said that the wicked would be cast like branches into the fire. (John 15:6). The Psalmist said they would be "cut off" (Psa. 37:9) and "shall not be". (Psa. 37:10). Malachi states that the wicked will be burnt like stubble leaving them "neither root nor branch" (Mal. 4:1), like "ashes" to be trodden under foot. (Mal. 4:3). This is not the kind of language one would associate with immortal souls in torment for eternity.


___

Also, to comment further on your point, there is no mention of "hell" in this verse, so it would be improper to use the phrase "grave."  Jesus is referring to the time after Judgment, which happens after Sheol (the time the dead are waiting in the grave for resurrection and judgment).  Obviously, at the time of judgment, people either return to God or are cut off from him, which is the natural consequence (or "punishment", if you will) of not casting off sin through the atonement and grace of Jesus, since no unclean thing can enter into the Kingdom of God.
This message was last edited by the player at 11:30, Sun 28 Nov 2004.
Paulos
player, 157 posts
Don't let society
force you into it's mold
Tue 30 Nov 2004
at 08:49
  • msg #50

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

where is your quote from?
Heath
player, 1005 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Tue 30 Nov 2004
at 12:49
  • msg #51

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

servant_of_Christ
player, 81 posts
no Jesus, no peace
know Jesus, know peace
Sat 4 Dec 2004
at 01:28
  • msg #52

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

I was wondering about this, just came into my mind, really. Any athiest willing to discuss this? Do you believe there is no possibility of God? That it's easier to think there is no God, rather than accept responsibilty for actions?


Do you believe you don't go to hell? but only those who believe in God go to hell if they are bad?
Heath
player, 1011 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Sat 4 Dec 2004
at 04:01
  • msg #53

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

I don't know if we have any atheists still posting.  I think what you're asking is more for agnostics, right?  Is this what you mean:

(1) I don't think there is a God, so the afterlife (or reward and punishment there are irrelevant);

(2) But if there is a God, then he will only punish those who believed in him and chose to sin because it would be unfair to punish those who sin in ignorance or unbelief?

Is that what you mean?
servant_of_Christ
player, 82 posts
no Jesus, no peace
know Jesus, know peace
Sat 4 Dec 2004
at 04:52
  • msg #54

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

I thought there was a new batch of people who joined up.

But yes, that's what I mean.
Lycaon
player, 132 posts
Sat 4 Dec 2004
at 05:27
  • msg #55

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

I'm not an atheist, but I'm bored tonight - so I'll bite! ;)

How does not believing in God correlate to not accepting responsibility for your actions?  It is possible to be an atheist and still be a good person.  Some of the nicest people I have known in my life have been atheists - and some have been Christian, as well.  Those people are good people because they accept responsibility for their actions and do not leave their fate in the hands of an invisible divine force.

Isn't doing good for the sake of aiding your fellow beings more selfless then doing good in pursuit of a reward in the afterlife?
Heath
player, 1014 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Sat 4 Dec 2004
at 06:48
  • msg #56

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

Not all "sins" are related to general concepts "goodness".
servant_of_Christ
player, 108 posts
no Jesus, no peace
know Jesus, know peace
Sun 5 Dec 2004
at 03:23
  • msg #57

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

Lycaon:
I'm not an atheist, but I'm bored tonight - so I'll bite! ;)

How does not believing in God correlate to not accepting responsibility for your actions?  It is possible to be an atheist and still be a good person.  Some of the nicest people I have known in my life have been atheists - and some have been Christian, as well.  Those people are good people because they accept responsibility for their actions and do not leave their fate in the hands of an invisible divine force.

Isn't doing good for the sake of aiding your fellow beings more selfless then doing good in pursuit of a reward in the afterlife?


Hi Lycaon. What I meant by accepting responsibility for actions, was that an athiest denies there being a God. An athiest would usually deny compelling evidence, because it would mean they are wrong.

I hope that is more understandable.

But for a christian, it's not about being nice. Not really. I can pretend being nice, but I won't get to heaven by pretending. God wants genuine faith.

Think about it, denying something no one can be sure of is gamble at best. As a christian, I know not everything can be answered by our mere knowledge. I don't think anyone thinks we ever will be able to know 100%. Certainly there are elements of the bible that cannot be explained.

To be an athiest means to deny even remote possibility of God. Why? Why the need to discount it completely?
Lycaon
player, 133 posts
Mon 6 Dec 2004
at 14:05
  • msg #58

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

Servant:
An athiest would usually deny compelling evidence, because it would mean they are wrong.


This is true of anyone with strongly held beliefs - not just athiests.

Servant:
To be an athiest means to deny even remote possibility of God. Why? Why the need to discount it completely?


I can't answer that one.  That is the reason I could not be an atheist - I could not deny the possibility of God.

On the other hand, you statement swings both ways.  To be a Christian means to deny even the remote possiblity that there is NO God.  Why discount that option completely?
servant_of_Christ
player, 112 posts
no Jesus, no peace
know Jesus, know peace
Mon 6 Dec 2004
at 14:49
  • msg #59

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

The answer to that is I have given the possibility of there being no God.

But now that I am sure there is one, it's less of an issue.

Athiests conclude there is no God, despite evidence.

There is evidence there is God.
Heath
player, 1020 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Mon 6 Dec 2004
at 15:06
  • msg #60

Re: Will ALL non-Christians go to hell?

Lycaon, I think the answer to your question is "faith."  Believers in God do that...believe.  Of course, there is the possibility there is no God.  If that wasn't the case, faith wouldn't be necessary, for a sure knowledge destroys the need for faith.  But faith is necessary, so one must choose not to believe that God may not exist even though that possibility is there.  That is the "exercise" of faith.  Choosing to believe that God may not exist would, in fact, be denying the very tenet of religion requiring faith.
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