Lets talk a little more about this campaign.

I visited Glastonbury, (or in welsh Ynys Wydryn, the Isle of Glass) many years ago.
It is a magical place steeped in ancient folklore and myths, a fair number of them related to the Arthurian tales.
You can find there the grave of Arthur and Guinevere, the Chalice well, Cadbury hill which may have been the location of Camelot, Stonehenge and other stone circles, Gog and Magog, the most ancient trees in Britain.
It is a place to this day visited by mystics, historians, new age hippies and music lovers who are lured there by the yearly festival.
History is palpable throughout the southeast of England.
Its history goes back very far and is still visible in the landscape.

So that's the real world. Now for the Dark World.
In our setting of 450AD the romans have all but left save for a few legions and leaving behind many roman-britons who were born there. The roman empire was shrinking and a series of usurper emperors further weakened the empire that was once the beacon of civilization. One such usurpers was Constantinius who declared himself emperor of Britannia but was ultimately defeated in Gaul (France) and executed.
The romans didn't try to convert  people from the Celtic faith but were tolerant of other religions, and sought to equate their own gods with those of the local population. The relatively new Christians were less so inclined and became a religious power in Britannia around 400-450AD. This makes the setting a hotbed of intrigue, power struggles and change. Christianity struggled for relevancy (and had internal battles between various sects), Saxon mercenaries brought norse beliefs and all of them had their own magic systems. No traditions, no technocracy but a whole lot of religions and cults, each fighting for dominance.

And in this time practically everyone believed in magic. So Paradox is less of an issue for traditional magic.
And there are others who benefit from this belief in the supernatural. the Masquerade that protects vampires from discovery in modern nights does not exist: everyone believes vampires exist and some of them rule openly through fear and dominance.
Shapeshifters likewise are assumed to be real and people stil have a reverent respect for the Fair Folk who still retain their old forms rather than the Changeling guises they adopt in later years. Monsters hide in the wild rather than having fled Earth because Unbelief isn't killing them yet.

Christianity in a way acts as the Technocracy, seeking to banish the supernatural from the world but they are nowhere near powerful enough yet to do so. Not for lack of trying of course, the supernatural and all the priests of the other faiths are servants of Satan in their minds. All of Britannia must convert, voluntarily or by force. The power of the church is slowly but steadily growing.

Politically Britannia post-roman occupation is in turmoil. Britannia fragmented into numerous petty kingdoms and territories. Former Roman cities and settlements often continued to exist, but their political and economic significance declined as power shifted to local chieftains and warlords. Around this time we also see the arrival of Anglo-Saxons, some mercenaries for local lords, some invaders in their own right.

So for an enterprising group of mages and their allies there is plenty to do. There is so little known historically for hundreds of years after the romans depart that we're very free to write our own histories. Fight the Church, protect the locals, side with one lord or another, become kingmakers, fight monsters, vampires and shapeshifters, or become kings and queens for however long you can hold on to power.

Who are you in this chaotic landscape? Anything you want. But I think we'll focus on the local cults and religions. We may see the first tenuous alliances  form between disparate faiths divided by local customs and beliefs, a proto-Traditions movement, fragile and centuries away from the strong alliance it wil one day become. And with them their allies and servants, the Fae, Shapeshifters, Sorcerers, Bygones and Familiars.

Expect to run into mortal invaders, ruthless rulers, rival priests and mages, manipulative bloodsuckers as old as the land itself, shapeshifters, unseelie Fae, wraiths, monsters in the wild long forgotten in modern days.
This message was last edited by the GM at 19:16, Tue 26 Mar.

Popping in to say Hi :)

Character wise, I’d like to play a vampire… or a ghoul, if vampires are deemed non playable.  I haven’t decided on a clan yet.

I think the church makes a good bad guy.

Should we pick a place and try to develop/protect it against other mortals and supernaturals?  Maybe it has a node for the mages that makes it worth protecting?  Then we get diplomatic opportunities to deal with other groups, kingdoms, etc.

Just get the ball rolling…

Judging from what I'm reading here the game was primarily envisioned as a Mage one with the chance at something tangential working with them.

Vampires, with only a few exceptions, find it hard to act during the day not to mention go out during the day.  I know of two ways to circumvent it and one you could do with a starting DA vampire through advanced levels of Dominate (which limits what Clan you choose), namely Possession, where they take control of a mortal (likely a ghoul retainer) and could act during the day and night.  The other you couldn't start with and would take more XP in game than we've gained in all of the other mage game.  Both options highly curtail the normal vampire focus just to act with other day walking people.  Ghouls are nice just remember that as one the benefits you get in a non-vampire focused game will be limited.  I'll leave details for PM's rather than filling this thread up.


Don't let that previous paragraph saying they suck in the context of this game I wouldn't enjoy playing something too (I love me some vampire and am in a DAV:20 game right now) it just sounds difficult under the current game thrust.

I suppose the most important question is are we using the Traditions equivalents in the Mage: Dark Ages stuff or just going with Spheres to model the effects and build the backgrounds as appropriate? That determines a lot for what characters might or might not be suitable since Dark Age Mage's various groups tend to limit options a bit, you need to have a think around that when coming up with a concept.

Are you looking to set it near Glastonbury, in a fair-sized settlement or is all that sort of stuff still up in the air? I believe the Fosse Way between Lincoln and Exeter was near Glastonbury so it's on a relatively major route to two fair sized settlements that survived the Roman departure though later ended up under Danish rule, though not till the 6th century.

The church as the enemy is fairly unsurprising from a White Wolf game. It's odd occurring only a centuryish after the Diocletianic was finally officially paused and about a century and a half before the faith really took off amongst the Anglo-Saxons but that's World of Darkness. If memory serves Roman-Christianity ended up largely focused in Welsh territory following the collapse of the empire but that's foggy in my memory of lessons of that chunk of history. Of course if we go near Glastonbury then even when pushed to Wales we'd still not be far.

As regards your suggestion of looking at finding a place and protecting it Marigold I'm fine with a bit of a local mages for local people. It's definitely a time when lots of locations are in a tenuous situation given the many invasions as the Romans pack up shop and go home. Having a home location in some ways expands the options, some concepts work far better with a place to rest their head and while it does make it harder for others generally speaking it opens up more choices than it closes off others. It'll be interesting to hear what others are considering as well.

I don't have Dark Ages, and (as I said) I'm not terribly familiar with the time period... so for the time being I'm happy to listen and learn.

Having issues with internet. Had a whole wall of text and the stupid internet ate it ..

Ghoul is fine. Unless everyone else is somehow night-bound as well vampire gets a bit tricky. Check Sorcerer for Hedge magic.
Vampires will likely be a semi-common occurrence.
'Demons are also a possible player option. They were around but didn't escape on their own from the Abbys.

Probably Modern Mage system but with paradigms, instruments, backgrounds appropriate for the era.

In short politically:
Before 44AD: Pre-roman Britannia was ruled by chieftains of the Britons, who themselves were composed of numerous tribes fighting each other.
44AD: The romans conquer Britannia up to Hadrian's wall beyond which live the picts and later the Scotti.
400AD: The romans retreat from Britannia and dozens of kingdoms fill the power vacuum, with chieftains becoming petty kings.
435AD: Under pressure from invading irish and picts king Vortigern invites Saxon mercenaries who eventually declare war on the east britons, swiftly creating kingdoms of their own and expelling the local Britons. They are stopped at Aquae Sulis (Bath). East Britannia remains in the hands of the Saxons.

In short religiously:
*The britons worshipped the celtic pantheon.
*The roman introduced their own pantheon but rather than convert syncretized  their gods with local gods. Christianity established a foothold as the romans converted but they form a distinct Celtic Christianity.
*The romans wipe out the druid stronghold of Anglesey Isle.
*While Christianity grows in popularity among roman Britons living in cities villagers still worship the Celtic pantheon as well.
*The Saxons arrive with their own Germanic and norse pantheons and wipe out east Britannia's Christianity.

Are there any ethnic groups you don’t want the PCs to descend from…. Romans, Saxons, etc?

And happy Easter all.

Right now I'm imagining someone more commonfolk -- basically the kind of person who lives her life trying not to draw attention from lords and other big folks.... but who also has a knack for growing plants and herbs and being able to help heal folks. If they knew what she could do, some folks might think she's touched by the fae, and others might think she's gifted to become a Saint. Either way, she doesn't really want the attention.

Thinking she'd have a focus on Life, with maybe smatterings of a few other spheres?

Sounds good, Embie :)

My proposed PC would be Alana, a Toreador ghoul.
As a native Breton, she grew up poor and took to busking for food & coin... to support her family.  A vampire took interest in her raw talent and sought to refine her into a proper singer.  Alana was expected to carry messages, entertain guests, and spy for her Lord.  Of late, she has been charged with visiting Celts and other peoples to absorb their musical knowledge... something her Regnant has an interest in but cannot do himself.  Alana is also waiting for opportunities to really distinguish herself and one day hopes to join the Toreador clan.

Alana has no magical talents, but her vampiric disciplines will help make a difference.  While she needs to keep in contact with her Master in between journeys, she is able to travel and adventure.  She has no prejudices towards mages or other ethnic peoples.

Sounds good both of you :)

Just remember Mari that ghouls advance uber slow cause of the massive xp investment when it comes to disciplines and they are dot capped depending on their Domitor's generation.  A powerful Vampire nabbed by the Domitor background will open up more levels but 20 for an initial level and x15 for in clans and x25 for out after that is hella killer.

I still haven't found an idea that I like yet.  I'm trying to come up with a paradigm that fits the times for a mage.  Back-falling on a vamp/adjacent is easy but I don't want to go that route unless I can't find something else I like.

In reply to Marigold (msg # 7):

Happy Easter.

Still chewing around ideas, got a few in my head but not nailed down any firmly enough yet. From what people have been thinking about it might be an idea to be part of either a small settlement or large Roman household who have largely headed home with those left behind doing what they can to keep things going.

I do kind of like the idea of us all being associated with either a household or a small settlement; it would provide a basis for knowing each other, even if we didn't know each other well. I think my concept is flexible enough to fit into this kind of structure, so if you (or someone else) would be willing to flesh out the broader details of the settlement/household, I'd be happy to figure out a way to fit within it.

I can also fit Alana into this.  Her Master is probably Roman and I was leaning towards having him be a Historian type.  ST has final say on who and what he is.

Based off the GMs headless horseman thread the possible location was near what's now Exeter in the UK. I had a quick search online and found this as a possible timeline of the location named there, as ever it's WoD so historical accuracy is not needed but it might help with ideas for a location that if not the one we're at might have been a major factor in terms of regional politics.



The other reason I mentioned the possibility of being associated with a Roman household of one type or another is that it opens up character options, however I won't rush on too far on committing to anything like that since others might have ideas. I'll give people chance to remark.

In reply to Carl (msg # 14):

Interesting -- maybe the lack of evidence of occupation isn't because no one was there, but but because the people who were there didn't want to be found. I can imagine both Romans and non-Romans who might have reasons to prefer a place that was somewhat protected from outside influence... I can imagine that it could be an interesting place, full of intrigue and politics, especially if it's in the midst of making the transition from someplace that exists to someplace that does not.

On the other hand, even the idea of being based in a region that is slowly dying non-deliberately (or, at least as non-deliberate as social, cultural, and economic issues can sometimes be); again, it strikes me as the kind of place where interesting questions and conundrums might come up.

Just a few thoughts that came up from reading your historical review.

In reply to Embie (msg # 15):

Truthfully the main reason is that most remains of occupation faded away fairly easily after the Romans left. It's why we still get news stories about remains of a possible settlement being found in the headlines now and then even today with no prior knowledge they were there. Very little survived the combination of time, archaic material and building methods and periodic raids/minor warfare.

But for WoD purposes your ideas work much better.

Need to start looking at the Dark Ages books for things to clarify about building characters. Two quick questions for the GM. Are you planning anything for the White Wolf skill bloat where it ends up with half a dozen additional skills/talents/knowledges every book, and shall I add them to the OC thread whenever I find them, and are you planning to have Craft skills treated as separate skills? I believe across the various WoD stuff there's about three different ways they do those those;

Each Craft is an entirely different skill and has to be bought separately
Each Craft is a different speciality and you buy access to a new Craft as a new speciality
Craft is a catch all like Academia, Science etc. and you can focus via specialities

Seems like the settlement/household thread has legs.

Was there anything else we needed to chat about as a group?

I’d like to petition a map marked with main settlements.  It will pay dividends later when we want to travel, propose alliances, etc :)