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Posted by woof
Shannara
GM, 20 posts
Treasurer
frpol@shannararose.com
Sat 28 Sep 2002
at 14:22
  • msg #58

Okie Dokie

No biggie.  However, it's easier to bring up my thoughts here than to note everyone concerned or email them :P
bigbadron
GM, 15 posts
He's big, he's bad, but
most of all, he's Ron...
Sat 28 Sep 2002
at 15:15
  • msg #59

Re: Okie Dokie

And I can step in as secretary if that's okay, pending confirmation from the others.  Whoopee!  I get to be sexually harrassed by Shan!  Yes!  All my dreams are coming true!  Ahem, I mean... "Secretary is a dirty job but somebody has to do it."

I hate to say this, but I'm starting to see why Jim wanted nothing to do with Dollsteak.  He's taken a great idea and made it seem like some sort of scam run by a group of con-men (and a con-woman)...
Jhael
GM, 12 posts
Sat 28 Sep 2002
at 17:41
  • msg #60

Re: Okie Dokie

To be honest I think Doll's just made a little misunderstanding, as did I.

I assumed the FRPPOL thing was a whole group of us, not just the four who decided to go ahead with the meeting. Those of us who were on the original emails may have believed that we were going to be included in that.

Now that its been made clear that's not the case, those of us who were confused can get on with letting you guys do it.

Although you may want to consider adjusting the GM status of this group to those who are actually involved, rather than the rest of us as well, seeing as you won't have anywhere more 'private' to discuss.

I do think that whether or not it was your intention, you have created the impression of a clique. I'm not sure whether you want to address that, or leave it as it is.
JohnB
GM, 27 posts
Sat 28 Sep 2002
at 18:01
  • msg #61

Re: Okie Dokie

Jhael - Jase created this board and is the final arbiter of  who has  GM status on it.  And if  you remember  -  all the Aussies  decided it  was easier for them to mail Jase directly  with funds -   so  at the moment  we have just  set up a group  to  collect  funds in the UK and the US.  Based on the feedback from the overall group -  even though it was ages ago.

There is  no  reason  why  more people can't be added -  and it  was always intended that  more  peope  would be added -  the  rules  and regs  make that very clear in the way they are written.
Shannara
GM, 22 posts
Treasurer
frpol@shannararose.com
Sat 28 Sep 2002
at 18:04
  • msg #62

Re: Okie Dokie

The FRPOL status that required officers was for one purpose - allowing johnb to open up an account in the UK.  Therefore, dollsy conveniently ignored why the other postitions other than treasurer were set up.  The witch-hunt that he wanted because Johnb and I have made tentative steps toward volunteering at the save pbw group didn't materialize as rapidly as he wanted, so we're now pariah and anything that we touch is, of course, suspect.

Ya know ... more and more, this looks like a bad idea.  Wanting to help has suddenly turned into more aggravation than it's worth.

So - here's my idea/proposal, and feel free to call a meeting on it or whatever.

Either everyone involved in this (and I don't give an (expletive deleted)WHO that includes, gets together and figures out whether woof & etc. want help and how we can do it, or we fold right now.

I've got donations that I'd be happy to return to those who have made them, or forward to woof - whichever.

Sorry, Ron.  Sorry, Johnb.  You want to go ahead with this, then I'll be happy to transfer the accounts over Jaime if he wants it, or anyone else you select.  But it ain't worth it - not to me.  Not like this.
This message was last edited by the GM at 18:04, Sat 28 Sept 2002.
JohnB
GM, 28 posts
Sat 28 Sep 2002
at 18:12
  • msg #63

Re: Okie Dokie

To  be honest -  I  feel a bit like that  ATM  as well.

BUT  I  don't  see anyone  else coming along volunteering to  run it, nor  coming up  with any plans.  All I  see is  Dollsteak upset  cos things  didn't  go  his  way.

However -  if anyone  wants  to  invent a democratic  system - or  any other system that  Woof  approves of - I  will gladly  hand  what  ever  we have got over to you.

However - if  you decide you  want Shan, Ron and me to  do it - then I  will carry on as we are - and expand the active group slowly, as we always intended.
bigbadron
GM, 16 posts
He's big, he's bad, but
most of all, he's Ron...
Sat 28 Sep 2002
at 18:44
  • msg #64

Re: Okie Dokie

Let's leave things as they are for now.  The way we have things set up now is no different from the way most companies are set up.  The board of directors decide who is on the board of directors, with the employees having little or no say in the matter.
It can't be that unconstitutional, otherwise capitalism would be illegal in most countries.

We four (now three) took the initiative on this, and I say we need to give it a chance.  It's been less than a week, and it's too soon to make a big decision about whether we should carry on.  Let's at least give it until the next meeting, and see how it goes.
The only person so far who has a problem with it is Dollsteak, other people are happy to volunteer and send money WITHOUT questioning the set-up.
We owe it to Woof, and to everybody else, to give this our best shot.
Jhael
GM, 13 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 09:50
  • msg #65

Re: Okie Dokie

I agree, I think since you guys have set it up like this, you should run with it. Now that its very clear that's what the setup is, I can't see that there'll be any more problems.

I think the confusion arose from the difference in the original scope (ie the emails that were flying around a while back) and the final result.

You guys have put the effort into it, drawn up the scope, now go with it. If you pull out the moment it starts looking hard well... we're all doomed, eh? ;)

And my comment about the board is still pretty relevant - woof has set it up so that the people who were in the original email threads have the status, not the people who ended up forming the group. Its not the same thing.
woof
GM, 8 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 09:53
  • msg #66

Re: Okie Dokie

I'm not sure where we're going to host the site yet Shannara, and I had envisioned the transaction being direct to/from my hosting company.  My preference is to keep it here, but the cost might be a problem.  It isn't a dedicated server, but it's pretty bloody close.

And for help... PLEASE!  Indeed I do want help and appreciate all the efforts you are going to!

You all have my full support until it's demonstrated I should think otherwise.

As for the FoRPoL group, I guess I have a diffent view of things and there's four tiers;

Financial members:  Members who handle the donations
  - eg John, Shan, BBR.

Members:  Other FoRPoL members whos participation varies
  - eg me (I guess), Jhael, IronSite, elSpike (all the other GM's)

Associate:  I guess... people who help out in some way
  - KabinTheDwarf with his PbW to RPoL conversion FAQ (I guess?)

Non-active member:  All other pleb users
  - What was that about a clique group...?

My view was that both members groups would see all the same stuff and have access to all the same messages etc, however the financial members would need to have more active rolls in the accounting side of things.  Any of us other 'members' should be active or inactive on that side (including attending the meetings) as they desire.
JohnB
GM, 33 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 11:16
  • msg #67

Re: Okie Dokie

Jase - thats  sounds like a really  good  descrition  of  what  we  actually  have.

Why  dont  we  work on  codifying it a little more and set it  as a formal  structure  for FoRPoL  over all.

We  could  change the name of the fund raising group to  Forpol-(Donations) and  make it an off shoot of the general FoRPoL structure.

We  could  change the rules of  FoRPoL(Donations)  so that  we  can only  add memebers of the Members  group to the committee   (although I  still want to  have final say  resting  with the committee at the time to  protect their financial reputations/credit cards  etc  ....)

Members can only  be added BY Jase -  as he  controls  who can GM the FoRPoL forum.  That  means that Jase  has a say on  who  can become a member of the Donations group.

Associate  Members and Inactive Members  are defined  as in Jase's  perviuos post.  Although  maybe  when  someone  has  been  associate for a while  we  should consider making them a full member?  Because  we  need to  keep some new blood coming in and  keeping us on our toes  :)


That  would add an extra layer of  accountability  for the finance  people, and  would  go  some way to  meeting DollSteaks  interest in broader involvement -   but  still let the Donations group protect their own financial interests?
Shannara
GM, 27 posts
Treasurer
frpol@shannararose.com
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 13:40
  • msg #68

Re: Okie Dokie

I'm still here and still willing to do whatever I can to help.

John, you know that I couldn't care less about how it's set up.  The only thing that matters to me is that my credit card information and bank information isn't given to someone that I have no idea about who they are.  I do want someone to have access to the frpol@shannararose.com paypal account, and I would also like to give that person a signed check made out to Friends of RPOL to be used to transfer funds from the bank account that I opened (which thus far only has my $25.00 in it :P ) to another account in the event that I can't.

I'm a somewhat cautious person, and I would really prefer that the info be given to someone I've known and talked to, even if just thru the internet.  Dollsteak would have been the ideal choice, in my mind, and still would be.  But ... *shrug*

Woof, thanks for speaking up.

I'm sorry about the reactions - dollsteak hurt my feelings quite a bit.
bigbadron
GM, 20 posts
He's big, he's bad, but
most of all, he's Ron...
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 15:14
  • msg #69

Re: Okie Dokie

I'm still up for it too.  Er... I was going to say something clever and erudite about it, but I don't have time just at the minute.  ;o)
Jhael
GM, 14 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 16:14
  • msg #70

Re: Okie Dokie

Excellent - I'm glad to see you guys not put out.

Shan - don't worry about doll - no one likes being told when they've done something not quite right, and I think a lot of his fuss-making is just cause he took offense at JB asking him to consult.

So for funds

UK people can give to JB
US people can give to Shan
Aust people can send directly to woof

is that how we're doing it?
JohnB
GM, 37 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 16:32
  • msg #71

Re: Okie Dokie

Almost  Jhael  :)

Shan deals  with international credit card donations and cheques (checks) in US  funds.

I am setting up an account that can handle  donations by cheque in UK  funds.

We  haven't codified a formal way of  collecting funds directly from the Australian contingent, although I expect those  who know Jase  can  slip him a few dollars and a beer  :P    However, Jase  was talking about the money  going straight  from the FoRPoL  account  directly to the supplier and by-passing him.  So that  might not  be acceptable (to Jase) in the long term

However, we  might need to  look at a more  formal  situation if there are people in Brisbane  (for example)  who  want to  contribute by cheque.  The same  applies  for  people in other  currency areas  as well.    At the  moment  we  can only  take other currencies  via  Paypal, which needs to be backed by a credit card.
JohnB
GM, 38 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 16:38
  • msg #72

Re: Okie Dokie

as an  adendum -  its  going to  be a slow  process codifying  how  we can collect  money in other places.  As these  discussions  have  shown  very  clearly, we need to  have a process that is transparent  and  people can see their  money passing through.

The  system  we  have  ATM  meets UK and US  requirments -  and  will possibly  have to  be modified to  meet  banking requirements in other coutries, as we add them.  Any of those  changes  also  have to  meet US and UK  legal  requirements,  so that we are operating legally in  all of  the countries  ...

It is going to be a bit of a head-ache -  but  won't  be insurmountable.
Jhael
GM, 16 posts
Mon 30 Sep 2002
at 08:13
  • msg #73

Re: Okie Dokie

Groovy stuff, I guess I'm just ultraflexible since I have an australian and a uk bank account.

Although the Inland Revenue doesn't know about the australian one yet.

BTW - did you know that its bloody hard to be domiciled in the UK and I have to basically buy a cemetary plot and then go and die in it first?

This is what I get for learning about taxation law.
woof
GM, 9 posts
Tue 1 Oct 2002
at 02:37
  • msg #74

Re: Okie Dokie

Money being handed directly to me is fine, even if I just go and spend it on beer, `cos at the end of the day I've got to front up the cash for any shortcomings.  If I spend Spike's $40 on beer then I've just got to pay an extra $40 to the hosting provider at some stage!  (c:

Unfortunately though I think doll may have had a good point or two to make, personal feelings do get in the way, and they're unavoidable as much as we may say or wish it to the contrare... after all we're humans talking (typing) to humans.  Harping on the same old points doesn't help either, especially once they've been dismissed or resolved...

There's no Australian paypal site unfortunately, so I'm not sure what we can do about Oz donations except zip them over to the US and back again.

Sounds quite inconvenient Jhael...
elSpike
GM, 18 posts
Tue 1 Oct 2002
at 03:13
  • msg #75

Re: Okie Dokie

woof...

perhaps you set up an account under your name at an aussie bank and put the account number up - that way people can put money in that way?

Im guessing that most people would be happy to do that.
Jhael
GM, 17 posts
Tue 1 Oct 2002
at 07:22
  • msg #76

Re: Okie Dokie

Just watch the tax - if its in your name, it will be considered income in addition to what you earn.

I suspect that's the big problem that John and Shan face.

I'm considering letting you guys have my australian account, seeing as my annual income there is under $6k. But I'd need to think through the legality of that and it would mean relying on me.

<gasp!>
JohnB
GM, 40 posts
Tue 1 Oct 2002
at 07:36
  • msg #77

Re: Okie Dokie

One  way to  do that  would be to open a bank account in the  FoRPol name  and include it in the finacial  set up  we have at the  monmet.

That would  mean that  we  can  amalgamate the funds in Aus -  before  paying the  Aus  supplier ...

Australians  can  send cheques  straight to the  account  and  then  we  can top up  with  what  we  have in the central funds, hopefully reducing money handling costs on the way past.

It  seems to  me that  dollsteak  has  one  real point to  make about the financial  sysem.  -  you  can't  trust the people running it.  He  has  managed to  think up  every  bad scenario  he can -  and tried to  suggest those  scenarios  can only  happen  because the  financial  setup isn't  democratic.  Well that's  Bull -  it  will happen under any  system  IF  the people running it are bent.

I  am well aware  of  the risk in handling other people's money -  both Shan and I  are -   and that's  why  we are  building  reporting systems  that  show  money in  and money  out.  People  will be  able  to track every  single donation.

The  tax issue is not a problem  for me -  the account isn't  in my  name -  I  just  underwrite it.  IE  if  it isn't  operated  properly - I am liable -  so I  need to  ensure the  sytem is  run properly under UK  law -  and why I  won't  give  control of the account to  anyone i  don't  trust.


So  what are  the good points  Doll is  making -  I  can't  see them under the personal slurs that  seem to keep appearing.
Jhael
GM, 19 posts
Tue 1 Oct 2002
at 07:44
  • msg #78

Re: Okie Dokie

Yes I think he's gotten a bit carried away.

To be honest, his experience with PBW seems to have soured him to the point that he can't see any other scenarios. Sad, but understandable.

Accountability is an issue, both you and he are on the right track there.

JB - I trust you with my money, my possessions and my life, so there's no drama there. I think the biggest problem that we may face is simple burnout. And it seems that there are enough people volunteering to fill any gaps that might arise.

Yes I know he's going overboard with it, and I would be offended too if it was my name he was using, but I've already had that pleasure with him dragging me through the mud elsewhere. Put it down to youth and inexperience in debating. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Find the arguments, close the loopholes and we'll all be much happier. But I think he's going to need a short sharp slapdown if he keeps up with this personal shit.
elSpike
GM, 20 posts
Thu 5 Dec 2002
at 01:19
  • msg #79

Re: Okie Dokie

Hey, has an australian bank account been set up yet?

I think it was GreatHairy that is a banker in Perth.
JohnB
GM, 48 posts
Thu 5 Dec 2002
at 15:34
  • msg #80

Re: Okie Dokie

Not yet -   need a board meeting -  which is  due  soon,  before  we can go ahead with it  :)

and it was Lou  :)
  I have all her details  :)
elSpike
GM, 21 posts
Thu 5 Dec 2002
at 23:40
  • msg #81

Re: Okie Dokie

Thanks J - just thinking of the donate something every month thing.  Might as well lead the charge.
JohnB
GM, 49 posts
Thu 5 Dec 2002
at 23:44
  • msg #82

Re: Okie Dokie

No Sweat -  we have been leaving things a bit  because of personal issues -  but we  will get there  shortly.
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