I've been playing for around two years in a game based on Emmy Allan's game Esoteric Enterprises but sadly for health reasons the GM is no longer able to continue. I miss it terribly. So now I ask this. If I was to buy a copy of the rules and set up a game set in and under London (or perhaps New York City). Would anybody be interested.

The game is based around an occult underground operating far beneath the city where the mole people, drow, orcs, aboleths and whoever dwell. Players are criminals, mercenaries, occultists, cultists or even strange non human creatures.

Does that sound like something you'd enjoy?

Hmm, I've not heard of this system before, but it sounds fascinating! I love modern/urban fantasy settings, and they are unfortunately under-represented. I would definitely be interested if you don't mind a player new to the system!

Hello, I'm another regular in precisely the same game. I'd be very interested in joining up with a new game.

I'd love to Alcuin. It's my favourite genre

This message was deleted by the user at 22:39, Sun 29 May 2022.

I was one of the new players in Roy's game, hadn't even hit fifteen posts yet. Would love to play.

This message was deleted by a moderator, as it was against the forum rules, at 15:04, Mon 30 May 2022.

In reply to Alyse (msg # 6):

I've had some severe flaws in Esoteric Enterprises pointed out to me and I wonder whether it might make more sense to start a similar game using Buffy/Angel rules instead?

I'm just amplifying what Alcuin said.

The game system (for me) is unplayable. I created a character in these rules that had 1/6 chance on doing every single skill. Interestingly there is no mechanism for improving skills that I could find  (unless you are the criminal class) so at level 10 after years of play almost every skill would still be 1/6 chance of success. (basically it's 1 out of 6 unless you have an attribute modifier. Attribute modifiers are quite rare and can be negative. If negative it's 1/36 chance of success... i.e. you fail 35 times in 36.

As far as I can tell combat never improves (unless you are the Hunter class) . So you get no better. I don't think I am misrepresenting the rules: if I have missed something that means you do get better as you progress, then I would be more interested.

The wound system is also far too brutal for my taste. After a couple of combats (I tried a couple of mock combats with die at home) my character ended up with crippling permanent wounds that are permanently disfiguring. As far as I could see if you get in a fight it's very realistic, and that means maimings, loss of limbs, permanent disfiguring etc.

I really like the world, like the flavour, but the games rules would prevent me from playing. I share Alcuin's views on the BTVS rules as an example of a much better rule system that works in the present day and supports things like fey and vampire and things. There are several other verions of Unisystem that work well too.

Another popular rules system would be World of Darkness. Again it has everything you need for this genre.

I would be very interested in playing if you selected a rules system that didn't mean  characters will fail in every die roll they make 5/6 times for the duration of the game with no chance of improvement.

In other words, you do not want to play this game.

I am still interested in playing, :)

Actually if I didn't want to play I wouldn't have spent so long detailing the information about the rules.

A game has a number of things
* A world/flavour/genre/place to play in
* A character creation process that let's you create a character in line with your vision
* A way to roll the die
and maybe other things too

I think the Esoteric Enterprises does a good job of the first two. Enough for me to want to play. I would like very much to take those first two and just use a different system to roll the die. One that doesn't mean you fail 5/6 times every time you roll the die for the duration of the character's life.

I only raised this because someone else suggested a rules change: same world, different rules. And I wanted to support that idea

I like the genre but have zero experience with that system. I would still be interested in playing if you would be willing to give some guidance along the way.

In reply to Siran (msg # 9):

The two games in question had several house rules that dealt with your concerns, but never actually playing in either meant you never got to see them in action. In character creation, combat and experience/advancement.

Resources Level

Each time a character gain a level they gain a resources level.
Resources level must be used in the next Downtime period, use it on one of the following (pending GM approval):

Activity Rules
Investment Increase Wealth score by +1 max of Wealth 9.
Night Class Increase a Skill by +1 max of 5.
Occult Study Occultist only, Gain a second random spell from a rank of your choice.
Self Defense Class Gain +1 to attack in a weapon type (pistols, swords etc).
Social Climber Get one of the social advantages from chargen.
Weapon training Mercenary only, chose weapon type (pistols, swords etc), roll twice for damage pick the best value (can be taken more than once).
Weirdness Magnet Get a special trait, training or skill that was open up during a job.

Attribute check

Roll #D6 determined by the difficult of the task, a score under your attribute indicate a success.

2D6 - Easy
3D6 - Challenging
4D6 - Difficult
5D6 - Extreme

SAVE Improvement

Every time a character gains a level they have 2 points to improve their SAVE.
The same SAVE can be improve twice or two separate SAVEs can be improved.
No SAVE can be improved two levels in a row.
No SAVE can go lower than 5+
Bodyguards and Explorer SAVEs can go as low as 3+




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This message was last edited by the user at 22:21, Thu 02 June 2022.

This message was deleted by the user at 07:36, Fri 03 June 2022.

I was in the aforementioned previous EE game for a rather long time and had a great experience in it. I never experienced a crippling/disfiguring injury, I pulled off a number of difficult tasks, and I explored the occult underworld with some key allies/friends.

The ruleset as written is punishing, and I can see your point, it's just...it's an OSR game, the rules are meant to be like this. It's an inherently very different game from something like Urban Shadows or the Buffy/Angel ruleset or WoD.

And, I mean, I love all of those games, honestly--they all do their own things very well, I think. But they're incompatibly different takes on this genre, and that's not a bad thing. I think it's actually a good thing, having various modes and manners of telling stories.

I especially understand your misgivings about the Criminal being the only one with skill increases as they gain experience. In the game I played, which encouraged regular solo play, this was solved by allowing characters to increase their chances at improving skills.

However, in the intended group playstyle of such games, there is simply no real need for anyone other than the Criminal to have high skills. There is an intentional and rigid division of labor in terms of character types. The Criminal is like the Thief of old, being the one with skills no one else had access to, which improved over time. The Mercenary gets an attack bonus, to make every Mercenary inherently better at fighting. This means you'll be joining up with others to increase your chances of survival. That's simply the game.

This game is a truly wonderful, weird instrument for telling stories in this genre, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, it might not be everyone's cup of tea, and that's also fine.

EDIT: I think another super important part of this conversation is that the skills and mechanics of an OSR game do not represent the totality of things that you can or are encouraged to do. You can do all sorts of things that do not require skills or attributes or mechanics. Nothing wrong with that.
This message was last edited by the user at 22:05, Fri 03 June 2022.

In reply to PCO.Spvnky (msg # 10):

I think I may eventually come up with a BTVS rules version but I am now playing in another Esoteric Enterprises game so they do exist if that's your preference.

I'm thinking of building a game in this genre using Powered by the Acopalypse as the game engine.  How would people feel about that?

Sounds great