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05:35, 29th March 2024 (GMT+0)

Beginning with the system.

Posted by Sir_Krugfred_of_the_Elm_Straits
Sir_Krugfred_of_the_Elm_Straits
member, 1 post
Fri 12 May 2023
at 21:15
  • msg #1

Beginning with the system

Has this been tried?

I’ve noticed that the requests on the Wanted – GMs board tend to be idiosyncratic, which is not surprising but makes me wonder about the posters' success rate finding what they're looking for.

What if a GM
  1. began by declaring the system they were willing to run (D&D 3.5, for example),
  2. asked for potential player input on the sort of game they've been wanting to play,
  3. workshopped with several contributors to put something together that might not check off all the boxes for everyone, but would be close enough to justify long-term interest?

So Dr. Frankenstein recruits the Baker Street Irregulars. Anyone have experience with that approach? How did it go?
Nu_Fenix
member, 218 posts
Fri 12 May 2023
at 22:28
  • msg #2

Beginning with the system

Isn't that what this entire forum is all about?

And what most the posts here are doing?
steelsmiter
member, 2231 posts
BESM, Fate, Indies, PBTA
NO FREEFORM! NO d20!
Fri 12 May 2023
at 23:39
  • msg #3

Beginning with the system

Sir_Krugfred_of_the_Elm_Straits:
Has this been tried?

Mixed actually. People put a lot of d20 here so it's practically taken as a given that people are going to run it, although sometimes I see that same thing happening with freeform games (not specifying what system I mean). Usually where you see people declare the system and ask for input and/or contributors it's where people know they're not running something everyone takes for granted.

quote:
What if a GM
  1. began by declaring the system they were willing to run <snip>
  2. asked for potential player input <snip>
  3. workshopped with several contributors <snip>


<snip> Anyone have experience with that approach? How did it go?

Extensive experience with this approach. So far mine have gotten minimal response, but I'm sure the fact that I almost exclusively run indie games and games I wrote has something to do with it. I actually have gotten more response out of WP over GPIA for some things. I've got one going, and two failed to launch, currently and many in the past although I'm not giving up on one of the current projects.
tibiotarsus
member, 293 posts
Hopepunk with a shovel
Sat 13 May 2023
at 00:04
  • msg #4

Beginning with the system


That's what this forum is for, and you can assess success by whether threads are closed, indicating a game being started just from the Interest Check. I often start with a gamble in Wanted: Players, too, but you have to make the effort to write an appealing ad for what you're setting out there, whereas here you have a few interested folks to start with.
deadtotheworld22
member, 205 posts
Sat 13 May 2023
at 00:14
  • msg #5

Beginning with the system

Different people have different approaches.

Some of the posts on the Wanted - GMs thread are looking as much for existing games to join as new ones, others are looking for either system agnostic GMs or indeed solo games which don't necessarily fit into the need for a post on this thread because you only need an interested GM.

As others have said, this tends to be where people workshop potential ideas or get general indications as to whether there's enough interest to make doing the prep and set up for a game worthwhile - you don't want to spend 10 hours pumping your heart and soul into a setting or some canon and then have no takers when you advertise for players.

People tend to post on GMs/Players Wanted if they're fairly clear what they're looking for and it's less of a toe in the water/negotiation/discussion.
donsr
member, 2848 posts
Sat 13 May 2023
at 01:23
  • msg #6

Beginning with the system

 in the last month, i have  had some interest in my games, that are semi-freform, with a home brewed  system and world.

 a couple folks   gave me a concept, and i told them how the game  runs. One Joined, two never had the  Manners to say 'Oh, Never mind i thougt it was 'this" "

As a Player....go rtg, and you can find out the system ect.

as a GM..you tell your RTJs  'this is what we  do"

 it takes a tiny bit to  find out  if you want to play..or if they want to play in your  game. No one is playing  'by the minute" so it shoudln't matter how you focus  is draen to the game.

sometimes   folks make things harder then they should  be...I will stress, that having the  Manners or fortitude, to tell a GM  you not interested, me expected.
steelsmiter
member, 2232 posts
BESM, Fate, Indies, PBTA
NO FREEFORM! NO d20!
Sat 13 May 2023
at 01:52
  • msg #7

Beginning with the system

deadtotheworld22:
you don't want to spend 10 hours pumping your heart and soul into a setting or some canon and then have no takers when you advertise for players.

Oh you stop at 10? I'm much too stubborn for that, and I got a lot of time on my hands. 10 is oftentimes a single day of not paying attention to the time as I just write, and I tend to go 6-8 months. My current project was created on 4/25 and now has 34 pages. But I tend to make games from scratch so...

quote:
never had the  Manners to say 'Oh, Never mind i thougt it was 'this" "

That happens to me more than I'd like to admit. I try to tell people straight up they aren't going to get an experience they expect if they go into it with expectations. I'm also just straight too neurodivergent to figure out how to answer something in a way that people will "get". Like I plugged my slasher horror game once and someone asked me what the appeal was over any other horror RPG and I'm like "I don't know it's a playtest, that's kind of the point". Like I feel they may have been trying to get me to answer in a certain way that I just never have context for.
donsr
member, 2849 posts
Sat 13 May 2023
at 02:34
  • msg #8

Beginning with the system

 yep Steels, it  happens?  I say my games  aren't for everyone, they aren't meant to be. BUT if they like the idea and  Like RP mixed with some dice  rolling now and then..they stay for a long while.

   Folks who never  respond, after i respond , i shrug off. Though i think very much less of them  for not giving  a " sorry, not what what i wanted"... It does  bother me , if they have played a bit, then go dark. because there are other players  who want/like interacting , and they  didn't have the guys to say good bye..or  no thanks? that not only rude to me, as the host. But very very rude to those players  who enjoyed the   gaming.

but to get back to the thing  that started this, and led to the last few posts... if people have interest in your game, they will RTJ..doesn't matter if there is a system there or not. The  PM conversation will tell you if they want to play, regardless of the system.
tibiotarsus
member, 294 posts
Hopepunk with a shovel
Sat 13 May 2023
at 10:38
  • msg #9

Re: Beginning with the system

steelsmiter:
I try to tell people straight up they aren't going to get an experience they expect if they go into it with expectations. I'm also just straight too neurodivergent to figure out how to answer something in a way that people will "get". Like I plugged my slasher horror game once and someone asked me what the appeal was over any other horror RPG and I'm like "I don't know it's a playtest, that's kind of the point". Like I feel they may have been trying to get me to answer in a certain way that I just never have context for.


Oh, I know this one! Since it's harder for players to bring time and commitment to learning a system when they could be playing, say, two familiar games instead with the same expenditure of effort, they want you to explain what lack you were filling when writing it, i.e. why it's a game you wrote (thing for communal interaction and consumption), not just a story (artistic expression that requires nothing added to its substance). Were you dissatisfied with specific other systems? Did you want to capture a particular vibe and work the mechanics around that in a way not already available?

If you deliberately brought your best chilli to a potluck you knew someone else was bringing a chilli to, and it was delicious but a less-appealing brown, no-one would eat it if you said "I don't know" when asked "oh, what's in this?" I mean, if the chef doesn't know why it's rat-poop brown or if it tastes good, that seems like something to urgently avoid. Nobody can have zero expectations (happy to eat anything up to and including a lamp/dog/gravel labelled "chilli" in this example) and also make a big commitment, it runs counter to human instincts.

Now, I run niche games in generally familiar systems, but my trick with ads is to put in comparisons with the familiar so folk know I'm not trying to feed them rocks, e.g. "You might like this game if you like [author], [film], [niche interest]" and so on. On the other hand, I also make it clear before mentioning them that the game is not exactly those things, because then people would just go read/watch/do that instead, as I'd not be adding anything and might even tarnish their enjoyment with my fan interpretation. The comparisons go at the end of the ad/check/are asked for in RTJs to decide fence-sitters who showed up interested by the premise and presentation.

So that's a different take on making the system-first approach a bit more individualised. I don't think it's any better or worse than concept-first, but it's good that people posting in this forum have the choice to do things either way, as systems mean more or less to different people. Sometimes it's genuinely a deal-breaker! If someone's a night nurse or something, they're not going to use their limited free time to learn Gumshoe if they can get the same thing in BRP.
steelsmiter
member, 2233 posts
BESM, Fate, Indies, PBTA
NO FREEFORM! NO d20!
Sat 13 May 2023
at 13:38
  • msg #10

Beginning with the system

tibiotarsus:
Oh, I know this one! Since it's harder for players to bring time and commitment to learning a system <snip>, they want you to explain what lack you were filling when writing it, i.e. why it's a game you wrote (thing for communal interaction and consumption), not just a story (artistic expression that requires nothing added to its substance). Were you dissatisfied with specific other systems? Did you want to capture a particular vibe and work the mechanics around that in a way not already available?

It's been long enough ago that I can't promise that's not what is happening because I'm pretty sure I explained I wrote a slasher game because at the time ('13) everything I'd seen was Lovecraftian or other existential horror... It might be what happened, but I feel like I did mention that.

quote:
If you deliberately brought your best chilli to a potluck you knew someone else was bringing a chilli to, and it was delicious but a less-appealing brown, no-one would eat it if you said "I don't know" when asked "oh, what's in this?" I mean, if the chef doesn't know why it's rat-poop brown or if it tastes good, that seems like something to urgently avoid.

Here is a perfect illustration of my neurodivergence kicking in. That analogy flat doesn't work because I've never been to any potluck or chili supper where a single drop of chili was ever left regardless of who cooked it. It looks like that's not a you problem, that's a me problem. It's also a cultural problem. My entire culture doesn't go to chili suppers or potlucks with the intent of not eating chili.
This message was last edited by the user at 13:50, Sat 13 May 2023.
Sir Swindle
member, 388 posts
Sat 13 May 2023
at 15:25
  • msg #11

Beginning with the system

It's mostly that all the power is in the DM's hands. So there isn't much need to workshop a way to accommodate players. I can run what you all want or I can run what I want there isn't an incentive to do the first over the second unless you are feeling charitable or just want a bit of randomness in the game set up.

I have done some collaborative stuff like that but the real problem is that is takes so long that you get player attrition before the game even starts. I think I've been in like 3 Only War games that died in regiment creation.
tibiotarsus
member, 295 posts
Hopepunk with a shovel
Sat 13 May 2023
at 16:05
  • msg #12

Beginning with the system

In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 10):

Maybe? I am confused by your distribution of negatives, but I think you successfully stated outright one reason your game was different to other horror games; next time the "why this and not the other?" kind of question comes up, that's what they want. If they keep asking, give more reasons, and if you run out then ask what they're looking for so you can say something in the range of "it is like that, in this way [how it is like]" or "this is not a game you'd like, thank you for your interest and farewell".

All right, then imagine the same thing, but with something that does fit your culture. I was just thinking of a food that can have many variations and look dubious/come in a closed container. Maybe you're fortunate enough to like absolutely everything and have no physical, voluntary or religious dietary restrictions, but you can grasp the idea that other people do have specific tastes and needs, I think. Being explicit in checks about why you made the thing will help get it to its audience, like if I labelled my chilli - or whatever substitute you're picturing - crock 'vegetarian medium hot', that would convey that whilst anyone could eat it, it would be of primary interest to people who liked moderate heat and eschewed the consumption of flesh/wanted to be 100% sure there was no beast they had made a vow not to eat in it (also that people with dairy/egg allergies should ask about the kitchen).

You're not going to literally kill anyone via food allergies by serving them a game that's completely not what they wanted by neglecting to divulge ingredients. However, you might kill their enthusiasm for trying indies, the genre, or TTRPGs in general: that's what people are protecting themselves from when they ask what's in the thing they don't know about compared to the one they do. I have massive "brain ain't shaped that way" trouble with information selection myself, so...I was going to say trust me on this one, but I don't know that I can communicate evidence enough that you'd find that reasonable. I tried!

I've never seen one of those "designed by committee" games survive more than a thread of actual play, but I don't think that's what was meant here, just the ordinary stuff you'd make an Interest Check for, like "we're playing [system], are more people interested in [setting] or [setting]?" sort of thing.
steelsmiter
member, 2234 posts
BESM, Fate, Indies, PBTA
NO FREEFORM! NO d20!
Sat 13 May 2023
at 17:15
  • msg #13

Beginning with the system

tibiotarsus:
In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 10):

Maybe? I am confused by your distribution of negatives, but I think you successfully stated outright one reason your game was different to other horror games; next time the "why this and not the other?" kind of question comes up, that's what they want.

I'm confused by this. Something about it isn't parsing

quote:
If they keep asking, give more reasons,

They usually don't.

quote:
and if you run out then ask what they're looking for

I don't how that's useful in a thread where we're all pitching our ideas, it should be that if your thread drew their interest it should by definintion be something along the lines of what they are looking for. And the reason I've written 5 games is that games aren't usually what I'm looking for (which obviously varies by a pretty significant amount.)

quote:
so you can say something in the range of "it is like that, in this way [how it is like]" or "this is not a game you'd like, thank you for your interest and farewell".

I usually reserve that for the RTJ process. But there's another problem with that in that if I've gotten to the RTJ process it's because people expressed interest, and whoopsie, turns out they weren't after all. Sometimes it's me for sure. I can't skimp on precise expressions of intent and detail. It can be a bit much I know.

quote:
All right, then imagine the same thing, but with something that does fit your culture.

I'm sure that's all well and good for neurotypicals but considering the inapplicability of the example it ruins the whole venture.

quote:
I was just thinking of a food that can have many variations and look dubious/come in a closed container. Maybe you're fortunate enough to like absolutely everything and have no physical, voluntary or religious dietary restrictions, but you can grasp the idea that other people do have specific tastes and needs, I think.

No I don't get how the situations relate at all, and this makes it worse because that's a microcosmic concern over a macrocosmic problem. Individuals with the issues mentioned in this snippet don't affect the overall reception of any food served at any communal eating situation I've ever been to. It is not the same for the fact that all the dishes to get consumed and that's equivocated to none of the games getting played.

quote:
Being explicit in checks about why you made the thing will help get it to its audience,

I'm literally (and I don't mean that in the figurative sense, it's really annoying that I have to clarify) incapable of doing anything other than expressing explicit detail. I'm sometimes capable of implicit detail, but not without extra explicit detail also.

quote:
like if I labelled my chilli - or whatever substitute you're picturing - crock 'vegetarian medium hot', that would convey that whilst anyone could eat it, it would be of primary interest to people who liked moderate heat and eschewed the consumption of flesh/wanted to be 100% sure there was no beast they had made a vow not to eat in it (also that people with dairy/egg allergies should ask about the kitchen).

The problem that I'm having is that it would get eaten. That's where the analogy fails. Personally I don't care who eats it, or in my case who plays my game(s), but the parallel is so far off that it totally ruins whatever it is you're trying to teach me.

quote:
You're not going to literally kill anyone via food allergies by serving them a game that's completely not what they wanted by neglecting to divulge ingredients. However, you might kill their enthusiasm for trying indies, the genre, or TTRPGs in general: that's what people are protecting themselves from when they ask what's in the thing they don't know about compared to the one they do.

I mean it's not like I don't understand the impetus to protect oneself from uncertainties, but the problem that I have is that it never gets to them actually asking me what's in the game in a literal, direct manner and even if it did I don't have enough context to compare anything I write to any other tabletop RPG literally because that's why I write RPGs. And where they've been comparable to video games in the past, I make a point of explicitly pointing that out (two of my games are literally titled [respective genre] World, one was literally described as the result of jacksepticeye playing Until Dawn, one was described as being inspired by a combination of the Criminal Sandbox video games that were out at the time, and the last a metacommentary on Hollywood, only on a budget)
tibiotarsus
member, 296 posts
Hopepunk with a shovel
Thu 18 May 2023
at 07:30
  • msg #14

Beginning with the system

Calling me neurotypical whilst I'm bringing specifically autistic observations on things I struggle with to an explanation has to be the funniest "insult" I've received on here. If you seriously can't understand people not wanting to eat your food that looks like rocks if they can possibly eat anything else, and can't imagine a simple substitution to a metaphor laid out because it works, insisting it doesn't, I think you should get someone with those skills to run your systems if you want them played, because lateral thinking/working around rather than dismissing player input is an essential part of being a GM.

Please note I'm not saying you can't run a game because your brain is funky - folk tell me I'm a great GM and I have been known to get asked "...so what's wrong with you?" by neurotypicals I've just met IRL - but that those under-developed skills are essential GM ones and it would be less frustrating for everyone involved if you got a chance to observe them in action in your systems via a third party. I remain just an internet random, of course, and should almost certainly not have checked this thread again, but was sincerely trying to help a fellow quirky person understand why "people want games" and "no-one* wants Mystery Meat games" are both true statements. You do you, though, I am removing myself for sure.


*a statistical fragment so small it doesn't result in one full person on a site with active members maybe in the hundreds; those one-question-vanish fragments of interest[ed people] aren't going to bring the rest of them.
steelsmiter
member, 2239 posts
BESM, Fate, Indies, PBTA
NO FREEFORM! NO d20!
Thu 18 May 2023
at 18:11
  • msg #15

Beginning with the system

tibiotarsus:
Calling me neurotypical whilst I'm bringing specifically autistic observations on things I struggle with to an explanation has to be the funniest "insult" I've received on here.

Sadly it's not how I intended it to come off.

quote:
If you seriously <snip> and can't imagine a simple substitution to a metaphor laid out because it works, insisting it doesn't, <snip> because lateral thinking/working around rather than dismissing player input is an essential part of being a GM.

Only there's no player input to dismiss. You're the most input I've had so far, and you've never been a player of mine. But it doesn't matter if it "works" for you because the literal statements of the metaphor don't work for me because the events contained within do not occur. In order for a metaphor to work they have to describe a shared experience phenomenon, which can't happen if one person doesn't have the metaphorical experience and hasn't in their entire lives.
Waxahachie
member, 183 posts
The horn that wakes
the sleepers
Fri 19 May 2023
at 18:24
  • msg #16

Beginning with the system

Sir_Krugfred_of_the_Elm_Straits:
I’ve noticed that the requests on the Wanted – GMs board tend to be...

What if a GM...


The Wanted – GMs board is for players recruiting GMs, not the other way around. As plenty of people have mentioned, this is the forum in which GMs to engage in the activities you've suggested - bringing game ideas and workshopping them with players to vet interest in the game before launching it.
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