Jobe00
 member, 318 posts
 Role-Playing
 Game Mechanic
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 13:51
I looked and can't find the answer...
The ability to leave a game might not be a bad feature.
pdboddy
 supporter, 710 posts
 EST/EDT [GMT-5/GMT-4]
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 14:08
I looked and can't find the answer...
In reply to Jobe00 (msg # 6):

It constantly comes up, and it is constantly refused.

The reasoning that the GM needs to have a warning before a person leaves, as a character's leaving may have detrimental effects to a GM's game.  So a player sending a PM asking to leave is not unreasonable to ask.

It's possible to code it, maybe?  But you'd have to convince the admin.
bigbadron
 moderator, 16018 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 14:18
I looked and can't find the answer...
In reply to Jobe00 (msg # 6):

It would be a terrible feature, allowing players to quit a game without letting the GM know first.  Not going to happen.

As others have mentioned, a player who wants to leave a game just has to send a PM to the GM of that game asking to be removed - doesn't have to give any explanation or anything.  If the GM doesn't comply with the request within seven days (one week), then an rMail to the Mods (with a link to the PM thread) will see the player removed from the game as soon as one of us sees it (usually within a couple of hours).

This message was last edited by the user at 14:31, Thu 22 July 2021.

tmagann
 member, 715 posts
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 14:41
I looked and can't find the answer...
In reply to bigbadron (msg # 8):

Players leave a game without telling the GM all the time. At least of the player actually was auto removed from the game they'd know before spending a couple weeks trying to see if it was a bit of Reality intruding, or actually leaving the game.

If you're worried about the character stats disappearing code it to change the tag to NPC< rather than delete it.

Frankly, I think it would be kinder to the GM to KNOW.
Gaffer
 member, 1700 posts
 Ocoee FL
 45 yrs of RPGs
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 14:47
I looked and can't find the answer...
In reply to tmagann (msg # 9):

I doubt that would solve the ghosting problem. Many would still just fade away.
tmagann
 member, 716 posts
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 14:51
I looked and can't find the answer...
In reply to Gaffer (msg # 10):

Sure, but we would KNOW when we logged in and it had an NC tag suddenly, as was a GM character.

We wouldn't wait two weeks wondering if it was life intruding and could take whatever measures were needed to adjust things find a replacement player or whatever.
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 392 posts
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 14:53
I looked and can't find the answer...
Exactly as Gaffer says above.

Players ghost out on games because they can't/won't sack up and make the decision to actually leave it because they (for whatever reason) don't want the GM/other players to know they've decided they're done and they've bailed. They want to go idle long enough for the GM to remove them (so they can blame the GM in the future, if asked) or for the other players to decide that something 'must have happened to them' and they weren't able to play, instead of being jerks that bailed on their game-mates, or they're lingering in limbo waiting for something 'fun' to happen.

No one that isn't willing to PM a GM to say 'remove me, please' is going to willingly remove themselves via a checkbox just to be courteous to others.

...and moving the character to NPC status to save the character isn't the answer, because that gives away to the other players that the person in question has been removed/quit, and that's not something that they necessarily need to know, depending on the game/character/circumstances in question.

Edit: And let's not even get into the disaster that happens when people fat-finger that checkbox and accidentally remove themselves. There's a system in place already that works. It ain't broke, don't fix it.

This message was last edited by the user at 14:55, Thu 22 July 2021.

donsr
 member, 2327 posts
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 15:15
I looked and can't find the answer...
In the end? this isn't a big thing.

You want to leave a game, tell the GM..GM should  step up and honor  the player's wishes.

I have had ghosted players. I give the  'x' amount  a time, basing  it on my 'interview' when they started..then the  character becomes  and NPC.. and is used to help  with the flow of the gameand meets , whatever  fate its  destined for.

 I have had  players  i removed, because  of conduct that effects players, or flat out harrasses them..they don't get a choice.

I have  had player who  wanted to leave, for whatever  reason ( Game too fast..Game not to thier liking, ect )... They get all the respect i can muster, and   those  Characters go off board..into the realm, just in case that player ever wishes to come back.

  You want to.leave a Game..Tell the GM.... GM ghosting?  you never  know what folks are goign through in life..I am in one game the GM  makes tons of  excused, once a month or  so...but on anoither site, runs  games  and a horde of characters..That's the kind of GM, the Admins  neet to help you escape.
tmagann
 member, 717 posts
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 15:39
Re: I looked and can't find the answer...
SunRuanEr:
Edit: And let's not even get into the disaster that happens when people fat-finger that checkbox and accidentally remove themselves. There's a system in place already that works. It ain't broke, don't fix it.


I disagree,based on the original OP's point: GMs that fade and players that keep using the game to post.

The system doesn't actually work for all cases, which was the OP's point. There are other reasons in my opinion too let a player leave, rather than depend on a GM that may fade away or be unwilling to remove them, but leaving players at the the mercy of a GM hat may or may not be willing to do the right thing isn't  "working" system, it's just a system. Maybe even the best of less than perfect choices, but not always ideal.
Aryiea
 member, 7 posts
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 15:40
Re: I looked and can't find the answer...
In reply to tmagann (msg # 14):

I think that's what people are saying the mods are for though :)
tmagann
 member, 718 posts
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 15:45
Re: I looked and can't find the answer...
In reply to Aryiea (msg # 15):

Yes, but they also say the system works. And yet...the topic of a little player control of a player's options keeps coming up, so it doesn't seem like it IS working as well as folks think.

Waiting for a GM, then waiting for a Mod is not ideal by a long shot.

I still have games pop up after months because a GM faded (or just left the game and started a new one. You folks realize we can SEE the Player's Wanted, right?) and a player wanted to use the old thread to advertise their own game, or just complain to others that had moved on that the game was dead.

It would be nice to be able to leave on my own, rather than send a list of dead games to the mods.
donsr
 member, 2328 posts
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 15:49
Re: I looked and can't find the answer...
There are a couple 'dead' games on my list..some players still check in, i offer the ones  who RPed  well, places in my game, with the caveat that we all return as soon as (if)  the  GM  comes back...there is a game that has been dead  for , closing in on three years..I'll post holiday greetings  and stuff.

 GMs  ghosting, whether they are flightly...run too many games, or have had RL hit them very hard (the game above, that i mentioned. I thing the GM passed, his last OOC post was  about  health issues)

 I feel if you  take these  steps...1..send a PM...2, wait a week,maybe two..if you aren't satisfied..send the Admins a Rmail and they'll take care of it...

 it may cause you some disgruntlement to see the thign light up ( i still think removing it from stickly list helps)..bit..hey?  it doesn't cost you any money> doesn't eat up data.

don't stress.. ask the Admins...
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 393 posts
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 15:59
I looked and can't find the answer...
tmagann:
It would be nice to be able to leave on my own, rather than send a list of dead games to the mods.


You can make the decision to leave a game on your own as it is, there's just (essentially) a mandatory 7-day waiting period. I don't think that's too much of a hardship, especially if the game is dead and nothing's happening, and it prevents players leaving in a temporary fit of pique that they might have gotten over otherwise. Is typing 'Remove me please' in your PM with the GM (which everyone already has, so you don't even have to make a new one!) that much more difficult than clicking a box? Is shooting an rMail to the mods with 'This GM didn't remove me, can you take care of that please?' that much of a hardship? The Mods are *very* quick to respond, so the likelihood of waiting any meaningful time is practically nil - and if a game's dead, what's another few hours of nothing happening?

Players get grumpy all the time, at each other and at the GM, and often it's either a misunderstanding that gets worked out or it just blows over - but can you imagine how much of a headache it would be for GMs if players could just willy-nilly click a box and remove themselves from a game? GMs would constantly be looking for new players, or having to re-add old ones, just because people often exhibit no manners on the internet.

If - and I do mean IF, because it's one of those things that's often listed as a hardline 'Never Gonna Happen' - the feature to remove yourself from a game was somehow implemented, I think the only reasonable thing to do with that check-box would be to *also* put in a 7-day waiting period after the first 'Yes, remove me from this game' (which triggers a notification for the GM that a player has requested that), and then re-issue a confirmation 'Are you SURE you want to leave this game?' after the 7 days are up.

...personally, I don't get the issue. People use the argument 'the game is dead, I want to leave' all the time, but if the game is *actually* dead nothing is happening in it, and all you have to do is uncheck the box on the front page to keep from being reminded about it existing. It's not like players are limited in how many games they can be in. What people actually want is the ability to remove themselves from a game that -isn't- dead, because it's still active and popping up on their screen, without taking any accountability for checking out.

This message was last edited by the user at 16:00, Thu 22 July 2021.

pdboddy
 supporter, 711 posts
 EST/EDT [GMT-5/GMT-4]
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 16:12
I looked and can't find the answer...
In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 18):

quote:
What people actually want is the ability to remove themselves from a game that -isn't- dead, because it's still active and popping up on their screen, without taking any accountability for checking out.


It is likely that a means for this to happen could be coded in, one which still gives the GM fair warning.

For example, a two factor means of doing so.  A button that says, "I want to leave.".  Clicking it causes an rmail, or a private message in game, to be sent to the GM.  "So-and-so wants to leave the game."  The GM is free to remove them, or let the timer lapse.  After a week, a second button shows up, "Leave game.".  Click it and it's done.  The player doesn't have to type anything, just has to wait to push the second button.  They have a week to change their mind, unless the GM decides to expedite.
Warrax
 subscriber, 305 posts
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 16:15
Re: I looked and can't find the answer...
pdboddy:
It is likely that a means for this to happen could be coded in, one which still gives the GM fair warning.

For example, a two factor means of doing so.  A button that says, "I want to leave.".  Clicking it causes an rmail, or a private message in game, to be sent to the GM.  "So-and-so wants to leave the game."  The GM is free to remove them, or let the timer lapse.  After a week, a second button shows up, "Leave game.".  Click it and it's done.  The player doesn't have to type anything, just has to wait to push the second button.  They have a week to change their mind, unless the GM decides to expedite.


I see where you're coming from, but it's a lot of effort for little tangible benefit to a system that already works.  The mods respond quickly as SunRuanEr already noted. All you have to do is ask; they are a responsive team.  Site devs need time and space to focus on materially valuable changes, not so much on fixing stuff that isn't really broken, I think is the message here.  At least that's IMHO, anyhow.
tmagann
 member, 719 posts
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 16:23
Re: I looked and can't find the answer...
SunRuanEr:
...personally, I don't get the issue. People use the argument 'the game is dead, I want to leave' all the time, but if the game is *actually* dead nothing is happening in it, and all you have to do is uncheck the box on the front page to keep from being reminded about it existing. It's not like players are limited in how many games they can be in. What people actually want is the ability to remove themselves from a game that -isn't- dead, because it's still active and popping up on their screen, without taking any accountability for checking out.


So, basically, you are saying it's not a problem for YOU, so you don't see why it should be for others. But, as I said earlier, the topic keeps coming up, so, obviously, it is a problem for some folks. Other people may have different experiences than you.

Truthfully I can live with it as is, mostly. That doesn't mean I don't understand how it could be an issue for folks, and I wouldn't mind a fix, myself, simply because some players DO make dead games into undead games.
pdboddy
 supporter, 712 posts
 EST/EDT [GMT-5/GMT-4]
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 16:27
Re: I looked and can't find the answer...
In reply to Warrax (msg # 20):

quote:
The mods respond quickly as SunRuanEr already noted. All you have to do is ask; they are a responsive team.  Site devs need time and space to focus on materially valuable changes, not so much on fixing stuff that isn't really broken, I think is the message here.  At least that's IMHO, anyhow.


I fully understand, I'm not pushing for the coders to do such.  Simply stating that it is possible to code something that will satisfy most who post to complain about it.
bigbadron
 moderator, 16019 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 17:04
Re: I looked and can't find the answer...
Yes, let's code a button.

Because it's too hard for people on a site that requires communication (you can't play a game without typing messages) to say "Hey, please remove me."
bigbadron
 moderator, 16020 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 17:08
Re: I looked and can't find the answer...
tmagann:
I wouldn't mind a fix, myself, simply because some players DO make dead games into undead games.

We have a system in place for dealing with that, as explained previously.  If that system breaks, it will be repaired.  For now, though, it's working exactly as intended, so no fix is necessary.
pdboddy
 supporter, 713 posts
 EST/EDT [GMT-5/GMT-4]
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 17:20
Re: I looked and can't find the answer...
bigbadron:
Yes, let's code a button.

Because it's too hard for people on a site that requires communication (you can't play a game without typing messages) to say "Hey, please remove me."


Yes, sarcasm is very helpful too.
bigbadron
 moderator, 16021 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 17:21
Re: I looked and can't find the answer...
tmagann:
leaving players at the the mercy of a GM hat may or may not be willing to do the right thing isn't  "working" system, it's just a system. Maybe even the best of less than perfect choices, but not always ideal.

Ah... see... in the event that the GM isn't prepared to "do the right thing", we will still remove the player, and maybe have a quiet word with the GM about his responsibilities.

Not ideal, no.  Ideally all games would run for ever, and players would never want to leave.

But, since that doesn't happen, we require players to make at least a minimal effort to let the GM know that they want to leave.  Just like they have to let the GM know that they want to join.
evileeyore
 member, 498 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
 Joined August 2015
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 17:33
Re: I looked and can't find the answer...
SunRuanEr:
...and moving the character to NPC status to save the character isn't the answer, because that gives away to the other players that the person in question has been removed/quit, and that's not something that they necessarily need to know, depending on the game/character/circumstances in question.

And I disagree unequivocally.  No need to get into here, just countering this so if anyone else reads it and disagrees they know they aren't the only ones.
tmagann
 member, 720 posts
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 17:42
Re: I looked and can't find the answer...
Look, I know the mods are going to fix this for the players.

And it's clear that folks that don't have an issue with the existing system seem to think that no one else should have an issue with it, either.

But the fact that it keeps coming up, over and over, every couple of months means that there IS an issue for some folks.

The fact that the mods won't even acknowledge that is disappointing. The fact that some others refuse to see alternative viewpoints is just unfortunate.

The fact of the matter is: GMs can do pretty much what they want with no notice. But the players have to jump through hoops, and even go crying to the Mods if a GM doesn't remove folks promptly enough.

It is unequal. But I really don't expect it to change. However, the Mods should be more understanding when this comes up again, and again, and again, as it does. If hey won't even consider changing it a bit, they should expect the same complaints to arise periodically. After all, those complaints are not being addressed, just ignored.
bigbadron
 moderator, 16022 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 17:45
Re: I looked and can't find the answer...
SunRuanEr:
moving the character to NPC status to save the character isn't the answer, because that gives away to the other players that the person in question has been removed/quit, and that's not something that they necessarily need to know, depending on the game/character/circumstances in question.

Actually there's no need to make the character an NPC to preserve it.  Just transfer it to the GM.  It will keep it's "Player" tag, and the system will automatically adjust it's log in times to conceal that it's always in game at the same time as the GM.

If the player shows up again later, you can always transfer the character back.

Note that, when Mods remove a player, we always move their character to the GM.

This message was last edited by the user at 17:49, Thu 22 July 2021.

evileeyore
 member, 499 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
 Joined August 2015
Thu 22 Jul 2021
at 18:03
Re: I looked and can't find the answer...
tmagann:
And it's clear that folks that don't have an issue with the existing system seem to think that no one else should have an issue with it, either.

No, it's not that.  We just don't think it's a large enough issue to request it from jase when we know that it will entail work on his end for the very minimal value of not having to interact with the GM and mods for an extremely small group of individuals.

No one here has said "stop having an issue", they've just to explain why it's not an issue for anyone else.

quote:
After all, those complaints are not being addressed, just ignored.

They're addressed again and again and again.  As they were here.

Just not with the conclusion that satisfies you.

I get it.  There's a list of things I don't like about this site, but I understand it's done the way it is for the reasons that it is, even if I disagree, don't understand, or have never been told the reasons.  And yes, like you here today, I occasionally shake the bars to see if I can rattle something loose.  I don't expect to, but maybe eventually the culture will shift.