I already did the experience thing (actually had to stop and remind myself though).

And Kahan wouldn't know what a 'critical miss' is on the resurrection roll so he has no idea it's not supposed to work again, he just doesn't want to use another spell off his scrolls if he can help it. I didn't forget about it, it's just called 'roleplaying'. :P

Character Statistics updated as of the end of Temple of Ashmere:

Hit Points
Borimer:  70/70
Marcus:  -10/60 (dead, poisoned*, pre-drowning, 1/2 Constitution)
Draaz:   -10/20 (dead, Critical Failure on resurrection)
Adaran:   42/42
Kahan:    54/54
Grizz:    66/66
Grung:    60/60

Ammunition
Borimer: 10 sheaf arrows, 3 sheaf arrows +1 (unclaimed)
Adaran:   5 sheaf arrows +1 (unclaimed), 10 flight arrows +1 (unclaimed)
Kahan:    6 sling bullets
Grizz:   Javelin +1 (unclaimed)
Grung:   Hand axe

Fired Shots
Borimer:  0
Marcus:   0
Draaz:    0
Adaran:   0
Kahan:    0
Grizz:    0
Grung:    0


Anyone besides Kahan and me level up?

By the way, my HP is now 63.

I know, I haven't yet updated character statistics as of everyone leveling up, just as of completing the adventure. :)

Well, technically, I would have leveled up before the end of it (since that's when we got exp, just Heath decided to give it to us later), but I see what you're getting at. So carry on.

I'm planning to update everyone's new HP totals at the same time, the same as I do after each round of action/combat. I just need to know if anyone else leveled up before I update the stats to the present.

Didn't level.  So no changes on my end.

Okay. So now I just need to know about Borimer and Grizz.

good xps but no change yet for borimer

Yes.  You may remember they would not allow weapons into the compound previously, and they held them for you before you could enter (leading into an unarmed combat situation later).  Now, however, you can freely carry and use your weapons within the compound due to the imminent threat from the orcs.

Due to the complexities of resurrection and potential complications with angering the gods, the dwarves do not give any options regarding Draaz.  Their healing prowess is limited to helping the living.


Anyone who can wear shoes can have souls.  :)

Yes, this is true.

it would be a mistake to have borimer in the negotiations with krugoth (low charisma and bad manner + orc charm already known, etc). who has the high charisma? and is anyone else wondering if we should take the portable hole (and everything in it) and flee? :)

The compound is currently under siege by the orcs, which is why the earthrocs are necessary.  So it is doubtful you could flee unless you stole the earthrocs.

For participation purposes, feel free to tell whoever is speaking to Krugoth what you would say if you could.  I don't want everyone to feel like they have to sit back and wait.

Also, basic communications will not require a roll, just things involve haggling, arguing, and things like that.

Parrying is not a proficiency, it's an option available to all characters at no cost, with far greater benefits - and far fewer restrictions - than Tumbling. This is why I think Tumbling needs a serious revamp. Currently there is literally zero reason for me to use Tumbling over basic parrying to improve my AC - parrying grants the same AC bonus (-4 to AC since I'm now level 8, and that will continue to improve by -1 every 2 levels, where as Tumbling's bonus is fixed at -4 to AC regardless of level) with none of the restrictions Tumbling imposes (light encumbrance or less, must have initiative, can only be performed for a number of rounds up to Constitution score, need ample space for acrobatics, etc).

Even with your house rule for Tumbling, basic non-proficient parrying is still far superior - it requires no NWP slots, improves automatically every 2 levels (which also means it will yield far better AC bonus than Tumbling because Rogues only get a new NWP slot every 4 levels, and thus are better off with basic parrying anyway), and never imposes any of the restrictions that Tumbling does. Since the basis for Parrying getting better with level is that the defender is gaining more and more combat experience, Tumbling (i.e. dodging attacks rather than deflecting them) should also get better with level - particularly for characters who are more likely to dodge than parry, like rogues and other melee-light classes. It makes no sense for an experienced acrobat to have better odds of defense with parrying blows like a warrior than he does with utilizing his acrobatic skills to avoid blows entirely. For someone like a rogue, dodging should be a far more viable means of defense than trying to parry like a warrior.

You weren't complaining about how different the Tumbling NWP was when you were, say, level 5, when your Parrying bonus would have only been (as I understand it) 2. If you want to get your Tumbling NWP better, I think you should only be allowed to increase it with another NWP slot. My healing NWP won't get any better unless I spend more points, so why should your NWP's get better with levels?


Honestly, I'm not even sure why you bring this up now, but anyway, I was going to post something about how I'll be stepping up to the plate with Krugoth. If anyone wants to interject something, feel free to before I finish my tale, since I'm sure I'm forgetting something. I know there are things I left out on purpose, like all the little fights we got into, and how we actually managed to get inside, or how we solved all the puzzles... but I don't think that will be necessary to tell to the grizzled old Dwarf. ;)

Actually, you're wrong. I've always thought Tumbling should be level-dependent rather than a fixed bonus, and since your memory about this seems to be lacking, recall that I brought up this issue a long, long time ago - and you agreed with me! Now you apparently disagree with me, which I find ironic. I also find it offensive that you're insinuating I only care about changing rules when it benefits my character. Not only is that flat out wrong, but it's rude and also entirely irrespective of all the points I raised for why I think this rule needs to be changed. If I make a statement that "x rule should be changed because of y and z", don't come at me with snarky remarks saying "you only care about changing x rule because of a and b", and then avoid addressing y and z altogether. This follows with your typical obnoxious trend of criticizing things I suggest and making subjects about me and my supposed underlying motives while disregarding the actual points I raise in my arguments entirely. If you want to discuss this subject, fine. But stop with your little digs and jabs at me and have an actual civil, respectful, impersonal debate about it. Because I have had it with your nonstop snark towards me.


Well if you go by that logic, why should Parrying get better with levels? Why should THAC0 get better with levels? Why should anything get better with levels? Why not just have everything purchased with our extremely limited quantity of NWP's? The problem is that some things in D&D are experience-oriented (that is, they improve with the character's increasing experience), and other things are completely non-experience-oriented. Typically, the things which improve with level revolve specifically around two focal points in the game: combat and class abilities. So THAC0, HP, attacks per round, spell-casting, thieving skills, etc. reflect increasing experience while some NWP's relate to character level and some do not. This is an inconsistency which I think is illogical, but that's how the game was made.

Personally, I think proficiencies like Healing should improve with experience - assuming the healer uses it frequently enough. But D&D revolves around combat and I'm guessing that's why something like Parrying improves with level while Healing doesn't. In the end, it honestly doesn't make much sense and I think we need to recognize that fact. The game seems to assume that combat-oriented abilities are the main ones that should reflect experience, while non-combat skills (i.e. most NWP's) only improve if you spend extra slots on them - and even then, they only improve by a very small degree compared to combat abilities. You really don't get much bang for your buck there at all, especially when you consider how long you have to wait between gaining new NWP's and how few of them you can ever hope to acquire in total.

As an example, take Borimer's prowess with blind fighting. He's had that skill since (I believe) level 1, and has gained a ton of experience since then, so who's to say that he isn't now effectively a "level 7 blind-fighter"? That would make just as much sense as a "level 7 parrier" - yet the game doesn't treat these skills equally. Borimer is officially a "Fighter", but in actuality he's not just like every other cookie-cutter fighter, he has his own developed skills which are essentially part of his specialty and individual style. Yet, since those skills are not "Class skills" that are part of the basic Fighter kit, they do not improve with his experience the way his other abilities do.

Consider how awkward this inequity would be to explain to a person IC. To anyone in the setting (i.e. characters who have no concept of D&D mechanics and only see what's in front of them with their own eyes), it would be difficult to make sense out of the fact that it's far easier and quicker to improve combat skills than to improve skills relating to anything other than combat like healing, tumbling, or whatever. The game seems to operate on the assumption that everything that isn't directly tied to combat or the standard character classes is secondary, and therefore does not fluidly improve with experience.

For instance, as a "Thief", I can increase "Read Languages" every level if I so choose, but to increase my acrobatic skills I have to wait 4 levels. So the game has decided for me what skills are important to my role/occupation and what skills are secondary. To anyone not versed in D&D mumbo-jumbo, they'd see very little distinction between a "Class skill" like deciphering writings and a "normal skill" like performing acrobatics or playing the lute or cooking, or whatever. The reality is that there isn't actually any significant divide in classification of these skills - the game simply treats them that way in order to narrow the focus of each character's role and abilities for the betterment of the group. It may be somewhat justifiable given the game's intended context for adventurers of specific walks of life, but that doesn't mean it's actually realistic or logical.

Anyway, short answer - I agree, there's no reason tumbling should get better with level while healing doesn't. I think both should improve with experience. I happen to think any skill that a character uses regularly in the course of adventuring should hone and improve over time, just like we'd expect in real life. The game doesn't do that. But does that mean the game is right? That it shouldn't be changed? I operate on this rationale: if the game did something right, keep it; if it did something wrong, change it. I don't believe in either enforcing or resisting change for either liberalism's or conservatism's own sake; each idea should be handled on a case-by-case basis, and merit should win out over whether it's a preservation or a change. It's the merit of something that matters, not its source.


I had been discussing it with Heath in private threads for quite some time. I'm bringing it up now because Heath just now posted the new rule for Tumbling. I thought that was obvious.

I realized why you brought it up shortly after posting, since I always check the IC thread first, the OOC ones next, then the top Rules threads last. I simply forgot/didn't care enough to edit it out.

Honestly I can't remember you bringing it up before, but if I agreed, I'll take your word for it. So much shit has been going on in my life that it's likely I've forgotten about it. The fact I said something rude isn't entirely surprising either; I've been dealing with the loss of my mother for a month now and it's still taking a (not so surprising) toll on my emotions and my level of patience. At the age of 19 I wasn't expecting to have to walk past the ashes of one of my parents every day when I get up to have breakfast.

Anyway (sorry about the tangent), I'm always leery about changing the game. Borimer has said before he doesn't like doing it, since this is supposed to be 2nd edition AD&D. I don't mind some changes, but adding things to our NWP's out of the blue would be just as unrealistic as never adding them beforehand. "Look at how much better I can all of a sudden tumble to avoid being attacked! I was doing this just a day ago and now I'm suddenly twice as good as before!" Does that make any sense? I don't think so.

If you want, I'll go and find the post where you said you agreed. Just let me know (and yes, I'm aware that you're taking my word for it and not arguing the point - so I'm offering regardless).

As for what you have been going through, I am sincerely sorry. And this brings some perspective to things lately, which I appreciate.


Well that's really an exaggeration. I'm not necessarily advocating that Tumbling should be twice as effective as Parrying (i.e. -1 AC per level vs -1 AC per two levels), but on the other extreme end of the spectrum, it doesn't make much sense that a paid-for proficiency is utterly inferior to a free ability, does it? At level 20, anyone can improve their AC by 10 with Parrying, where as Tumbling only improves it by 4. I'm only level 8 and already Tumbling has outlived its usefulness in combat compared to basic parrying. That's not right.

It wouldn't even be fair to make Tumbling grant an equal rate of AC improvement to Parrying, since once again, Tumbling is purchased and comes with a lot of restrictions while Parrying is free and comes with none of those restrictions. So ultimately, Tumbling needs to offer a higher advantage over Parrying to make up for its cost and restrictions or it simply doesn't make sense. That's just basic logic and I'm sure anyone could agree with that. Remember, both Tumbling and Parrying require the defender to forfeit attacks that round - so we're not talking about making someone more powerful in combat, this is strictly defensive. The best a person could achieve would be to effectively remove themselves from the melee, which is its own drawback too.

Anyhow, I think Tumbling should perhaps be about 50% more effective than Parrying (you are, after all, dodging out of the way of attacks rather than trying to deflect them with your weapon, which is more difficult and requires more combat skill - i.e. more experience/higher level to be as effective as dodging). So, say by level 20, Tumbling would offer as much as 15 better AC - if the character has been using it since level 1 - compared to the 10 better AC that Parrying offers at level 20. So each level would proceed as follows regarding AC improvement:

Level       Tumbling AC  Parrying AC
1           -1           -1
2           -1           -1
3           -2           -1
4           -3           -2
5           -4           -2
6           -4           -3
7           -5           -3
8           -6           -4
9           -7           -4
10          -7           -5
11          -8           -5
12          -9           -6
13          -10          -6
14          -10          -7
15          -11          -7
16          -12          -8
17          -13          -8
18          -13          -9
19          -14          -9
20          -15          -10

With this curve, my "jump" in dodging ability would only be by 2, which is hardly noticeable, and no more than a Priest's THAC0 increase at level-up (and technically, I wouldn't even be suddenly improving by 2 because I would supposedly have been better by 1 during level 7 anyway). We're talking about a factor of literally 10% on a d20. That is honestly not much of a leap, especially considering the fickle nature of dice rolls and unpredictable combinations of round-to-round modifiers. For all you know, I might have had that extra -2 to AC for months now, for all the evidence you could reliably derive IC.

In actuality, modifiers to d20 rolls don't start becoming very noticeable (particularly IC where characters only witness results, rather than dice rolls) until you get into bigger quantities like +/-5 or greater. Heath could easily throw in a -2 to dice rolls and no one would ever be the wiser. He could even conceivably factor in -4 to rolls and no one would realize it because they would just dismiss the results as the well-known fickle nature of dice. The daunting frequency of 1's and 20's in this game are more than ample proof of that bizarre circumstance. So I really don't think anyone would notice any change unless they specifically kept their eyes open for it after internalizing this OOC discussion about it. Basically, no one would notice IC without metagaming - and even then, they might still not see evidence of it (since an extra -2 to AC is hardly a guarantee against getting hit, as I think we all know too well).

I have to disagree with some of the basic assumptions here.  Parrying is for melee combat.  If you are being shot at by arrows, tumbling will help you and parrying will not.

Tumbling also moves you out of harm's way.  Parrying means you can't move or do anything while defending.  Tumbling means you can escape and avoid an attack of opportunity.

And in any case, parrying is a specific combat maneuver based on level, which is based on some experience in combat.  Tumbling has a side effect bonus on combat but is not itself a combat maneuver.

Rules -- (in addition to attack, move, run, use an item, cover, load or change weapon, etc., you can choose to do the following):

Parry
"Parrying is a no-move action that is in effect for the entire combat round. If a character parries, he cannot move, attack, or cast spells."

Guard
"Guarding is a half-move action, or a no-move action if the character stands her ground. A guarding character strikes the moment an attacker moves into the guarding character's threatening squares, regardless of her actual initiative and action phase."

Cover
"A character with a cocked and loaded crossbow, or an arrow nocked and drawn in a bow, can announce that he is covering an opponent within his weapon's short range."

Withdraw
Withdrawing essentially moves away from combat (at half move) without turning from the opponent and thereby avoids an attack of opportunity.

(I did not include the complete rules on these.  They are in the Combat and Tactics Guide.)

* * *

So tumbling is a "withdrawal" for melee that gives an AC bonus or a move and AC bonus when avoiding long range fire.  It is nothing at all like "parrying" in its purpose or scope.  Adaran is correct that, in a melee situation where he is holding a weapon and doesn't want to move, he is better off with parrying now that he is a high level.  In other avoidance situations, tumbling is helpful where parrying is not.

Tumbling is probably mostly effective in other situations too.  It can be used as entertainment and to increase charisma effects on an audience.  It can also be used in some physical, non-combat situations (traps, etc.).

I'm planning a rather lengthy IC post which will include some important info, so please bear with me. I can't post just yet, as I'm busy at work.

Character Statistics updated as of the end of the adventure and XP awards:

Hit Points
Borimer:  70/70
Marcus:  -10/60 (dead, poisoned*, pre-drowning, 1/2 Constitution)
Draaz:   -10/20 (dead, Critical Failure on resurrection)
Adaran:   48/48
Kahan:    63/63
Grizz:    66/66
Grung:    60/60

This is assuming that Grizz didn't level.

Several notes:


Note that Marcus and Draaz, who were also part of the original bargain, died in pursuit of fulfilling the mission and were instrumental in our success. It isn't fair for Krugoth to (conveniently) wave all obligations regarding their rightful compensation just because they're now dead. He owes them, whether that means setting aside rewards for them to be given out upon their resurrection, or if that's not possible, redistributing their shares to the rest of us. Him benefitting from their deaths by not having to pay for their services - services they died carrying out - is utterly wrong (and dishonorable), in my opinion. Also, before you go thinking this is just some sneaky way for me to benefit from Marcus' and Draaz's deaths, I would actually prefer their shares to be either held for them or go to some sort of group fund to pay for the party's collective needs during the course of adventuring.

This note is just an OOC for the players, rather than directed at Heath, since Heath is just playing Krugoth in character. But I would think that Borimer and Kahan might well consider these things IC (especially Borimer, as Marcus and Draaz were his closest companions), which is why I bring them up OOC. If they don't, then Adaran might bring it up to them.


Note that, as explained in the OOC thread, the only artifacts Krugoth truly has a rightful claim to are those found in the temple - not those we collected from battles with Tarimar's forces. Again, this is an OOC reference for the players to establish the facts, regardless of what Krugoth thinks he's entitled to. Everyone in the group would be well aware that not everything we found was obtained from the temple.


Krugoth doesn't (shouldn't) actually even know about the two Bags of Holding we obtained from Darwen and Maelarian, since we wouldn't have placed these in the Portable Hole (per Draaz's warning about putting extra-dimensional spaces within extra-dimensional spaces). If someone in the group chooses to mention to Krugoth that we found these, that's one thing, but currently he should have no knowledge of them. I'm thinking Borimer and/or Kahan might be carrying the Bags of Holding in their packs at the moment.


Likewise, Krugoth shouldn't yet have any knowledge of the scrolls because these are currently in Kahan's possession in scroll cases, not in the Portable Hole. Again, I'm not saying that we are or should be concealing these items from Krugoth, just that they simply haven't yet been revealed IC in the course of events thus far.

Here's the deal:

If there is something you want to conceal from Krugoth, let me know.  If we go into detail about every single item he does or does not know about, we will take a month instead of a few days in getting this bartering done.  In his mind, anything you received from the time of borrowing the earthrocs to returning them is part of his contributed effort and resources, but you will have to discuss that with him.

If you conceal things from him, I will have to make a roll to see if he has suspicions that you are lying or holding back.  If confirmed, his reaction will likely not be very good.

Your understanding is that he is primarily interested in anything that will help them win the war -- weapons, gold, and related magic.  He is less inclined to want to keep anything that is irrelevant to that goal.  Use this knowledge in your bartering as well.

As for the other things, you will have to see his reaction in character, which will be partially dependent on the rolls.  Relating to Marcus and Draaz, he (and the dwarves) have a different take on providing for those who die when the living still have needs.

Two things - just because Krugoth isn't currently aware of something (like the scrolls in Kahan's scroll cases or the Bags of Holding, etc) does not by any means entail that someone is purposefully concealing them and actively ensuring he doesn't find out about them. Kahan, for instance, is probably not even thinking about the scrolls and magic bags right now, since he likely has more important concerns at the moment. Krugoth being unaware of certain items in our possession doesn't mean we're "concealing" them anymore than him being unaware of our battle with the purple worm would mean we're hiding that from him. He simply doesn't know about them yet, whether we intend to conceal them or not.

Secondly, why would he even get a roll to see if he has suspicions that we're holding back something? We don't get rolls like that when another character is keeping something to themselves - especially if that character isn't even conversing about the subject in the first place. He would need some sort of outward sign that something is being withheld or concealed, or omitted from the discussion to even have a chance of suspecting something. OOC, you know that we have found things which we haven't yet brought to Krugoth's attention, but IC, Krugoth hasn't got a clue what all we acquired. He shouldn't even get a roll to determine if we're hiding something without some reason to suspect that in the first place. He's not psychic after all.

I'll have to disagree.  When a dwarf who is a merchant and trader by trade is engaging in a deal, he is actively looking for any signs of deceit, including eyeing your possessions, your facial expressions, etc.  He is skilled in this, which is why he is the chief of the clan.  Think of him like the main character in the show Lie to Me.  It would be different if this were not part of a deal and he did not already have suspicions, but he is trying to cash in on a deal and make sure he doesn't get shortchanged.

In short, it is in his nature to distrust strangers regarding a deal.  In fact, he may disbelieve you even if you tell the complete truth.

And yes, you would get a roll if you were specifically looking for deceit and had any kind of skill in it.
This message was last edited by the GM at 00:21, Thu 14 July 2011.

Krugoth can be as suspicious as he wants, but that doesn't mean he has a chance to find out about things that aren't even the subject of the IC discussion right now. For instance, we found some valuable items on Aram's body in the caverns - but no one's talking about that right now, and I'm willing to bet no one was even thinking about it. I wasn't even thinking about it until this OOC discussion, and neither is Adaran. Adaran is still waiting for a reply to the two issues he raised, and is less focused on mentally running through the dozens upon dozens of items collected over the course of the adventure. So the only facial expressions he's realistically going to have right now are ones related to what he's currently thinking about. That's what I mean when I say Krugoth isn't psychic. Even the shrewdest merchant can't magically sense things that aren't even being thought about, much less discussed:

"You - you look like you're hiding something."
"Hiding something?"
"Yes. I can see it in your eyes."
"Hiding what?"
"You look like you know something you didn't tell me about."
"Hmm... Well, we ran into a purple worm in there that--"
"No, something else."
"Can you be more specific?"
"You found something, didn't you? Something you haven't revealed."
"Well, let's see... There was that magic chalk..."
"No, something valuable."
"Hmm... Oh wait, maybe Aram's necklace?"
"Aha! Hand it over."
"I completely forgot. Sorry."
"Now, what about the half-ogre's items?"
"How did you know about the half-ogre?"
"I saw it in your eyes."

Being suspicious is one thing, but there is really only so much you can read in a person's expressions. You can get the idea that they're being dishonest - if they're actually saying something or actively thinking about a hidden truth (shifty eyes, nervous fidgeting, etc) - or omitting something when answering a question, but it doesn't magically give you the power to sense anything and everything that you're presently unaware of. That requires a focused interrogation with pointed questioning, and again, needs some sort of discernable hint beforehand to give you an idea of what a person might be hiding from you. Merely distrusting someone is not enough of a lead to figure out what it is that they're hiding, or if they are in fact hiding anything at all.