Ursion's argument it that we do it because it's effective.

Consider real world Knightly Orders that thrived for hundreds of years on the boundaries of the Christian world.

The King of England could not command a contingent of Knights Templar to go collect taxes for him in Scotland, but he obviously had a lot of influence and could work with the Orders Grand Master to conduct operations in the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

Why did Monarchs tolerate and contribute to these Orders? There were many reasons, some of them cultural or religious, but it was also because they attracted professional veteran warriors, and they were self sufficient.

In the terms of Golarion, the Stolen Lands and the River Kingdoms are a backwater. The party has a representative of a very large, very well organized military order in their ranks already.

Instead of starting from scratch with a handful of local adventurers and Johnny Hayseed the volunteer (or conscript), they can bring in world class professional help from the outside.

As Ursion already pointed out...they are not an arm of the Cheliax government. They are an independent military order. There is also no reason for them to be the sole military or law enforcement branch in the Kingdom. They can supplement.

Original Renee was strongly Lawful Neutral, so is Ursion, they really like structure. They really like careful examination and rules. The Hellknights are pretty much as Lawful as one gets in Golarion.

Some are evil, yes,..But there are also Lawful Good Hellknights...it's the "lawful" that matters in both cases.

I would think they would be on the same team in this, especially as he has been the only one to delve into her more personal thoughts and experiences.

Perhaps we're thinking too big; if Ursion were to establish, say, a small chapterhouse with a pallisade, and a barraks for about 20 Hellknight trainees, with himself as their leader, as a small supplement to the country's indigenous forces, that would be doable.  But even that is going to take some time, effort, and money to create, and we have to establish trade, and things to actually trade, before we can begin building anything.

That's a great point Erlin.

This scene was partially because I wanted to get in some RP before we rinse and repeat with another combat.

But this is all way down the line stuff. Starting small, like you say, would be a perfectly acceptable solution in Ursion's eyes.

Of course, we are all thinking long-term here, which I love, BUT we need to think in the short term.  We really aren't establishing anything until we can actually clear out this place and possibly make friends along the way as well.

In reply to Ursion Korvonan (msg # 18):

Renee is quite Lawful Neutral. We are bringing order to a very chaotic realm.

My point is we are asking for this lawful group to come in and be above the authority of the lawful government we decide to put into place. At that point, we are just typical murder hobos clearing a dungeon for some other entity to take over. I don't want to set up a puppet government.

If the idea was presented as "I want to bring in a chapter house to have more military might to make others think twice about invading, but they won't interfere in our affairs" that would be more palatable to me.

But here, let me quote this:



You can call it a lawful organization, but quite frankly, the wording there makes the organization actually rooted in evil. If the means justify the end, then anything is permissible. Lawful Neutral would focus on enforcing the letter of the law in an evenhanded manner. Lawful Good would focus on enforcing the spirit of the law through the lens of goodness, with circumstances taken into consideration.

Everyone likes to focus on the Golarion wording and what has happened, but let me throw out this logical conclusion based upon the exact wording we have. If Lady Lebeda's death would remove the chance for civil unrest and chaos due to war and a peaceful transition to the enemy leader, then the Hellknights would do that by their own charter.


That all said, those are my opinions. Renee is separate from me, but as much as she is for order, she will have reservations about taking their lawful authority and delegating it to someone else without any chance to take it back. A government should be orderly, should be able to make corrections, and enforcing laws is a big factor in showing that laws matter.

The description in the write up is accurate, and I would hope that Ursion's portrayal has been consistent with that world view.

The Order of the Scourge in particular is concerned about the just and even creation and application of the Law, which complements your views of Law Neutral.

But it does not have to be all or nothing. You have an aspiring Hellknight in your ranks, he is going to want to do Hellknight stuff, and he is entitled to an equal share of the reward.

So do you want to compromise with him? Or shut it down completely? These are both viable paths to go down, and he will react appropriately. The game will not stop in its tracks either way, Ursion will just adapt and continue to further his own motivations and goals.

Perhaps even leading to interesting events in the future, if we get that far.

It's all part of the story. But which path will they take?

You'll see that Renee is not completely opposed to the idea, she just doesn't want an autonomous organization enforcing laws within a kingdom without the consent or authority granted to them (And the ability to take back that authority if necessary). Renee is a survivor of a 'no morality kingdom', so she has some baggage and issues she has to process.

I am interested to see where the RP actually takes the game. I personally have never played Kingmaker (Or much of Pathfinder itself), so I'm learning as we go along. I don't want to stifle your character goals either.

For character development, I'd love to get Renee to peek out of her shell more. But I think that will require something of a push. Whether Erlin, Ursion, or one of the others wants to partake of the building/drama there remains to be seen.

Oh I would definitely like to continue the deeper interaction between Renee and Ursion, and I think her partial opposition will certainly be a facet of that.

Hopefully some more opportunities will present themselves.

As for stifling goals, I feel that as Urion is the more "difficult" concept, it would be incumbent upon me as his Player to acquiesce should his goals become too fractious for the group, or if they start demanding too much time.

Sort of the bargain I made with myself, and to some part the GM, when I pitched it.

Very good.

I'm still getting a feel for Renee but deep down, I think she realizes she's lacking intimate connections with people (Hence the small gestures towards Ursion). But a barrier is she never had a proper father figure (She was an asset and experiment), and her mother, yeah, that is a brutal past there of a lot of hurt! She has no true connection to her gender, her species as a whole, and her coping mechanism that served her well to survive those circumstances, is actually a block to forming any sort of healthy relationships with others.

She has to have a catalyst to break down and let all that bottled emotional hurt out. But I'm not exactly sure what that will look like. Or she continues on, and something else develops. I guess that's the fun of RP, uncertainty!

I don't want to interrupt but let me know when you're ready to move on from your internal discussions. I have stuff to post but I fear it will just get buried with all the chatter going on. It is great you guys are engaging with one another, it is every GM's dream to see this kind of party interaction but I cannot keep up with you so this is me taking a step back and when you're ready I'll push things along again.

I think we are just about there GM.

Sounds like we are all on board with trying the bandit camp again.

Please feel free to fire at will unless something more serious gets brought up.

Taking a look at the mission list... But I'm onboard with the group decision.

Ive got some bedtime reading to do. Drama and heated discussions over alignment in the community thread means I am backlogged on my reading here.

Yay all caught up and it seems the main convo is dying down. Sorry for going dark but the last thing I wanted to do was interrupt an important discussion with like 8 NPCs talking about their day :D

I will get a big update going tomorrow morning. Stay tuned!

Nice update.

So what do you say gang...

Twin Axes or the Company of the Rose?

I think we should now call scorpions Owch Crickets...

I don't know which option sounds better (Been long hours at work). Whatever fearless leader says. ;)

I say we go for the Twin Axes and see if we can get the one Svetlana knows alive. If we can accomplish at least one task with minimal effort/fight that is a boon in my book and we might be able to do so with that one.

Sounds like a plan

With that in mind we might want to see if Svetlana has anything that could help convince the girl to come peacefully. I'll likely have Radgonda post to that effect when I get home from work tomorrow, as I am actually heading to bed now.

I am good with Twin Axes first and will participate / follow any ambush / trap plans!

Let me know when you're ready to move out.

1) Ursion did you ask about an armor order? Do you have the gold to complete it?

2) Is anyone buying rations. My notes shows the group is out of food.

Maybe we should spend a day hunting and smoking meat

1) Ursion did you ask about an armor order? Do you have the gold to complete it?

He did ask, yes, but he is unfortunately short by 550gp. Might need to wait till after this next raid.

Unless anybody would like to extend him a loan to get the fighter a serious AC boost?

I would be willing to give up some gold.

I agree with hunting and getting meat.  Though we could probably do that as we make our way to the camp.  We can buy some rations so we have something.