In reply to Overseer (msg # 3):

1. Great!

2. I'm flexible, but I generally prefer working with other players.

3. I suspect there is a big mix. Technology is much further along, but you can't build stuff without the manufacturing available. I like where you're heading with things.

4. Cool.

5. That makes a lot of sense.

6. You might consider making a table and then, rather than rolling, set up a Google Sheet using rand() and maybe linking to prior days to make multi-day storms a little more likely to happen than if you do purely random.

7. Sounds good.

Pipe weapons will certainly be the most prevalent. In my mind pipe guns aren’t all the same, each one is simply a very crude and simple firearm made from spare scrap, rusted metal and wood that type of stuff. Maybe accurate up to 50 yards or something? I’m not entirely familiar with the ranges on most weapons. I think it’s like 500 yards for an m4? I’m not talking max range I’m talking like suitable engagement range.

Firearms will definitely be more rare than melee weapons, especially ones in good condition. Laser weapons will be rarer still, and then plasma and gauss weaponry will be the rarest weapons. Most enemies will probably use melee weapons. I don’t want ammo to be ridiculously rare but I don’t want players carrying a full load of magazines and grenades unless  they spent considerable effort getting to that point.

I also like a wide variety of firearms, variety is nice and from what I understand GURPS handles different guns well without making them all feel the same.

Same with armor, power armor, etc. in regards to Fusion Cores I was thinking that perhaps fusion cores are like rechargeable batteries, when you plug one into a fusion generator the fusion core powers the building, and the generator recharges the fusion core, leading to infinite power more or less, which would explain why all these buildings in the commonwealth still have power and fully charged fusion cores after 200 years

Sounds great to me.

I like the idea of Fusion power being at the cutting edge of pre war life, and understandably temping for scavengers.

I think GURPS does do a good job at representing a sampling of firearms.

It would be very easy to have guns stand out for range, reliability, magazine size , accuracy, how concealable it is, or how suitable for close quarters (bulk).

Each with their own little story.

A .308 rifle in excellent condition, but with no magazine rendering it a single shot breech loader.

A stubby 12g pipe shotgun that hits like a truck, but that is only viable at near point blank range.

A Chinese C96 pistol that came back as a war trophy, but with only one box of ultra rare 7.63mm ammunition.

All very viable.

Hopefully some of the others come along soon, I’d hate to get to far into things without their input.

It seems like the 3 of us are all on the same page with what we want, so that’s really exciting. Hopefully when I post the ad we could a decent number of players. This is going to be my personal project, and I really want this game to be something special on rpol. It’s going to be a lot of work, but the possibilities with the world and the system together are just endless. Should be a lot of fun!

Hey, all. Quick intro before I go get groceries. Been playing Fallout since the original Wasteland game which I played on my Commodore-64.

Nice.

Will be cool to get a really old school take on the whole thing.

Definitely, I started with Fallout 3. Granted, I’m on the younger side of life but after playing Skyrim I knew I’d love Fallout, and Fallout 4 had just dropped so I got 3 and NV, played both, then went onto 4. I liked Fallout 3, didn’t play it to much as it was just really old by the time I got into the series. NV I played through probably 3-4 times, just to get the different endings with different kinds of characters. Depending on how long the game lasts, I could totally see myself beginning to incorporate some NCR and Legion interaction with the commonwealth. I know, it’s a vast distance of land between the two, but I think it’s something to be looked at down the road. Maybe even have a quest line of traveling from the commonwealth to New Vegas after we get through most of the commonwealth stories. But that’s all a long ways away I’m just shooting off thoughts.

Oh about Synths and the Enclave. I always felt it was a bit of a let down that there was no real enclave presence or interaction in Fallout 4. Don’t get me wrong, I totally understand lore wise that the enclave is devastated and pretty much destroyed, but it’s such a cool faction in my opinion that I’m probably going to find a way to at least work out some ex enclave members or a cliche “one last remaining outpost” kind of concept. Now on to synths. Obviously when the game starts no one is going to be a synth. I’d like to stick to synths weren’t created until after the war as it is in the lore. But I would like to hash out whether or not players should be allowed to play as a synth character. Also, what about synths who don’t know they’re synths? I think a cool idea would be whenever a player creates a new character, I make a secret roll to determine if that new character is in fact a synth. It wouldn’t be a 50/50 chance, more like 90/10 maybe?

Playing as a synth could be really fun, especially if you went the tourist route. I think a disadvantage would still be you could randomly have to make a check to not do something you’re being instructed to do, trying to start a new life, would definitely lead to really good role play.

But that also means that if another player is anti synth, that’s just a sticky mess waiting to happen.

I think that Synths could be fertile ground for all kinds of stories, and I would not rule out players wanting to tell that sort of story.

Would you want to keep Synths and their history similar to what it is now? Servants of the institute meant to overcome their meager numbers?

If so, yeah, I imagine they don't take kindly to such a large expenditure of resources trying to walk out the door.

How much do you think the average person in the Commonwealth really knows about them?

1) Makes sense.

2) Yeah, I'm with the "PVP with permission" sentiment. Granted, if certain circumstances align themselves in such a way that such a view doesn't make sense, I assume the players involved can agree to some sort of arbitrated outcome.

3) I mean, it's mostly re-skinning. I, too, have a preference for the old (1/2/kinda NV) weapons compared to the newer ones, but a Wattz 1000 from California and an AER6 from the Capitol are both just Laser Pistols in terms of mechanics.

4) Cool, I'll probably play something lower-key if that's a supported option.

5) Sounds fine, as long as inventory eventually gets abstracted back into caps over time. Otherwise our poor hypothetical gunsmith will never sell the toasters and mini-nukes that get dumped on them.

6) I've seen something like that work with a few different approaches. Posting a new topic for a new day or a GM post in the middle of the day for a weather change makes the most sense, though I've also seen stickied posts that announce the current time/weather/recent public events of note.

7) So are we talking, like... no BoS incursion or minutemen resurrection unless we need those to be a thing? Stuff like that. Mostly just curious in terms of available character options.

Okay still doing a bit of catching up but so far I agree and like everything I've read. But what about robots will they be playable characters?

Yeah for the most part I’d like to keep things as established in lore. I really just want to avoid someone going “hey, that character/faction would never do that” . But yeah Synths will be institute creations to help them deal with their small numbers, and most people don’t know anything about synths or the institute. All they know is stories of strange robotic men gathering valuable scrap and materials from razed settlements and then disappearing, leaving no survivors. Everyone’s probably heard whispers of the rail road, but that’s about it. Nick Valentine is an exception, but he’s that really sketchy guy who’s office is in the back alley and yeah he saved all those people but he’s a synth so who knows what his deal really is.

People are desperately afraid of someone they know being a synth, or worse being a synth themselves. Imagine the witch hunts of Salem or the Cold War paranoia and crank that up ten fold. Obviously player characters won’t start out knowing anything about synths but the entire commonwealth is gripped with paranoia over the synth issue, and word is spreading to the surrounding areas.

When it comes to synths leaving the institute, I imagine it’s a very secret war. No one really knows anything about the conflict between the railroad and the institute. It’s all incredibly secretive. Coursers teleport in and raid safe houses then vanish without a trace. Railroad agents locate synths and approach them in dark alleys. Maybe small desperate gun battles occur but for the most part there’s never a sign of either side. If you’re a member of the railroad, your entire life is spent in hiding.



In regards to robots as PCs, I don’t see why not. But I’d prefer everyone start with a human prewar sanctuary resident. My initial start up is going to be more or less the same as fallout 4 starts. So minor freeform role play in the prewar world, meeting the Vault Tec representative, signing up for entry to Vault 111, and then the bombs falling and everyone meeting up in Vault 111.

Once we get past that, if someone really wants to play another kind of character or they die and are making a new one I’m totally okay with people being whatever they want to be. That includes robots and super mutants. I could perhaps be persuaded to allow a robot to be in the vault pre was as some kind of maintenance bot or something

There are plenty of contradictions to the original lore of Fallout 1, 2, and Tactics by Bethesda since they took over, but Bethesda can't avoid contradicting themselves.

In any work of fiction, the most important part is to maintain internal consistency. That is paramount, and if you plan on any retcon, make sure you have an explanation for it.

That's all you have to do.

Meanwhile, you can add to the existing lore fairly easily. See the Rust Devils gang from the Automaton DLC, or the use of the Gunners in the Sim Settlements 2 mod series.

Sounds good to me Overseer.

Did you want to go with Templates for starting concepts? Or did you have something less structured in mind?

For example, you threw out a few different concepts at one point, Chinese Spy, Anchorage Veteran, Vault-Tec Employee.

So say a player opts for the Chinese Spy, for the sake of discussion. You as the GM could say here you go, your character gets to choose from x number of spy type skills, extra wealth, maybe a language option. Skills most normal people would not have, but you have to take the Secret: Chinese Spy (Possible Death) [-30] Disadvantage.

Anchorage Veteran, same thing, x points in combat skills that most people would never have, but your choice of x points in Nightmares, Post Combat Shakes, Wounded, etc.

I'm sure you get the idea.

Or, would you prefer that players just build realistic characters that make sense for the setting without having a hard requirement?

I’m actually a patron for Sim Settlements 2. Not a long term one, just recently, but I love the route Kinggath went. I’m waiting for chapter 3 to drop before I let myself play through the mod. I play on Xbox, so I’m limited mod wise and can’t wait to get a decent PC.

I like the idea of templates, should help me and any other newer folks get through character creation more easily, and get a better feel for how to build a cohesive character. As long as everyone still has enough points to feel like they can still make a unique character.

I’m going to be watching lots of GURPS tutorials on YouTube tonight, reading up on some recommended books and the core rules. Tomorrow is going to be a slow day for me, I’ll check in somewhat consistently throughout the day but it’s my daughters birthday tomorrow so I won’t be doing any heavy typing or work. After Monday I have Tuesday and Wednesday off, so those will be the days I’m going to try and get as much done as possible. Im looking forward to it. Then by Friday I’ll probably post an ad (although we do already have a fair number of players), finish any last minute preparations over the weekend and start the first IC thread June 27th

Oh, is GURPS what we're going with? The last bit of the proposals thread made it sound like this was going to be in Modiphius' Fallout 2d20.

Hi-di-ho fellow survivorinos!

I'll also be known as "Assistant", so when we get into the weeds of Chargen I'll be helping out and as I know GURPS like the back of my hands, I'll be the local rules answers guy.  For everything else, that's where Overseer comes in.  When I'm posting as Assistant, it's an official thing, when I'm posting as evileeyore or as [Name Yet to be Determined], it's just like my opinion man.  I'll do my best to keep them firmly separated.

For this threads stuff... (tossing questions in bold) ... htese are just my opinions:

1 - I like a little bit more PC protectionism, but I'm also a real big "dice in the open and they fall where they may" type.  So PC death being on the table is fine.  Combat and exploration being a big pile of danger is also perfectly fine.

2 - PvP.  I'd prefer to keep the PC Intolerance to minimum, if a "BoS" PC wants to distrust, dislike, and try to avoid 'hated foe' PCs, that's fine.  Hunt and kill?  Nah man, save that for the NPCs.  So if someone wants to go that way, I'd prefer they tone down the Intolerance to an Odious Personal Habit (Distrusts/Dislikes/Antagonizes [Group]) or even Chauvinistic Quirk because while you might not ever want to work with them, they are likely to show up in PC groups and possibly as important NPCs (if so, they'd be one those fabled "Good Ones" - you know like every single Drow in the '80s and every Teifling since the '00s).

3 - Fine with me.  I can trawl through High-Tech and a few other sources for firearms, and I'm very familiar with the Low-Tech weapon alteration system.  How important will customizability and fabricobbling of weapons be to the group?  Because if we end with a few (or even one) gearheads I can bang together something...  Also how Ultra do we want our Tech to get?  I love the 80s Dieselpunk aesthetic of the T-45 Power armor... but I think things like Power Armor, plasma, heck even lasers should something that we work towards, not start out with or gain easily.

4 - I strongly recommend that as a group we come to a consensus as to where we want to take things (hexcrawl exploration, caravan runners and guards, outskirt settlement builders, Diamond City scrappers, Diamond City merchants, etc), that eases the work we'll have to do and personally I'm fine going any which way, but making a character to do one thing (let alone a bunch of NPCs and settlements, and groups), and then everything swings a different way?  Kinda annoying.

And yeah, we'll all be 'Vaulties' at first, but where do we want to go as a group from there?  (I call dibs on the sniper rifle in the hollow-out rock right outside of Megaton!)

5 - Okay, so no caps then?  I'm cool with working up a barter economy or even Fiat Currency.  There are reasons for one over the other*, even for having both... say if Diamond City operates under Fiat Currency in an attempt to 'control the economy' (lol, like that ever works) and then outskirt settlements and traveling traders operate under barter.  It'll make certian non-combat skills more important.

* The predominant reason for Fiat Currency in an rpg is it makes buying and selling from Gear Tables easier for the Players and GMs.  The predominant reason for Fiat Currency in the real world was so the merchant class could break the strangle hold the nobility had on material wealth and land ownership, but then everything went sideways and... [/rant]

6 - Yeah, I'll leave that one to you boss, but I'm happy to grab the Weather Tables GURPS has and make them readily available... and I have some house rules on Overland Travel and Survival that can be tweaked to make things easier on us...

7. - Cool beanos.  We can even toss some things and implement completely new things, though I think we should keep some stuff to maintain the "look and feel".  The bombs fell, FEV, the Vaults exist (though they might be serious like in 1 and 2, not goofy weird experiments like in 3+), but come up with our own weird mutants, animals, reasons behind the Synths, gangs, and some factions...


Step 1:  Synth versus Robo.  Everyone "trusts" robots, because they are robots.  They look like robots, not like people.  "Even that weirdo PI looks like a robot, just shaped more like a person.  Okay, maybe at night, at a distance, if he ain't talkin, but the moment he's under some light or he speaks, he's a robot is clear as day.  So most people trust him.  I mean robots, leastways not them ones out in the glow what's gone all loco, do what they're told an function the way they was built.  Synths?  Pretendin to be people?  Infiltratin an takin their places an then disappearin people?  That ain't natural."

So maybe if a Synth looks and sounds more like a robot, even if they are fully sapient and sentient, they'd be 'trusted', where a pure robot (just a programmed machine) who looks like a human (fake skin, hair, etc) and speaks with a human voice would be destroyed the moment it was discovered...

The whole "sentient" robot goes all the way back to Wasteland and Fallout 2, so this one has history in the franchise.

And for the record, I'm delineating "Synth" as a Sapient Artificial Person, where a Robot is a Programmed Machine.  Maybe we should split that into Synths, Droids, and Robots?  So a PC Droid out the gate might be doable (a Mr Handy taken from the Vault when we all leave?), where a Synth would have to join the party later after we've left the Vault, and a Robot would be an Ally or piece of equipment.


Just a moment of realism, firearms are stupidly durable.  We have now firearms that are hundreds of years old that work fine.  The US has more guns than families to own them.  The hard part, once the bombs fall, will be ammo.  But even then I expect primitive ranged weapons, bows, crossbows, slings, and spears, to be just as prevalent as melee weapons.  And I'd expect any Authorities to try to maintain a monopoly on firearms.  So Super Muties shouldn't be wandering around with vulcan minicannons (unless they have a very wealthy Patron) or even lasers or rifles.  But a few armed with blackpowder handgunnes alongside three to four times as many with spears and rebar-cement maces might not be unheard of.  And Diamond City should have firearm equipped guards or militia (I'll admit to exceedingly little lore awareness for Fallout 4 aside from the funky crank-power lasers of the Minutemen, the Synths and Institute, and the cool as fuck hermit crabs).



Wastelander originals!  High-five!

Unless your hand is still cramped from pressing the arrow keys half a million times to move around... I do not miss the old controls, I do not miss them at all.



I think having a new "old world government" remnant could be a thing.  In one of my games I had "The Regulation" and their roving bands of Regulators, who were basically jerks pretending to be taxmen, but who did keep the roads cleared and trade open.


Personally I'm on the "if a Player wants to play a Synth, they should know" page.  I'm not a fan of "Aha!  Your Character was secretly something else all along!"  A lot of Players won't tolerate those shenanigans, but they'll happily fail Self-Control rolls and then go do what their Programmed Orders are if that comes up.

On that note, Overseer has asked me about looking into "sanity" rules, so they do have an interest in some Horror possibilities, what say you all?  You want a little Horror mixed into the the survival?  Cannibal Super Mutants, sneaky Nightkin, body horror of Chimeras, identity horror of Synths, whatever weird clickety-clack creatures that live in the Glow and eat people, the Fog that comes and robs settlements of people, those rumors of mind-controlling psionic backwoods inbred hillbillies, spontaneous mutations, heck even the worry that your neighbor might have developed a taste for long pig...



I've been pitching Templates and Lenses as hard as I can, because it makes it easier on you (and us once the front work is done).

I never minded the controls. I tried to play the remastered Wasteland, but it's such a grinding slog at low levels, and I do not find such things as fun as I did as a kid.

I am an NPC in Wasteland 2 as I had money at the time the Kickstarter was going. As soon as you meet Jobe in game, just shoot the sumbitch. Not only do you have my permission, but I encourage it.
Play through once by helping him to understand why I think this.

As for the game, I was wondering which system would be used. GURPS has a history with Fallout as it was to be the system used for the original Fallout game, but the deal fell through because paperwork which lead to the SPECIAL system to be developed.

If you use BTRC's 3G³ for weapon design, there are GURPS 3rd edition conversion rules, and then converting to G4 GURPS is simple enough. Great for pipe weapons.

I've played Wasteland 2 almost three times, pretty sure I've shot Jobe every single time... look forward to not shooting Jobe this time around!  ;)


I might have BTRC floating around on a cd, I'll dig for it.

GURPS will handle the great variety of weapons well. It's got lots for that, including things like the blunderbuss.

One way to get the synth option in there without requiring the possibility for someone who doesn't want it would be for the GM to have some secret points for each player. Each player could give some guidelines like "synth is OK" or "no synth." Then you could still have the unknown synth while guaranteeing it's not for someone who doesn't want it.

Templates are good for people new to the system. I find them artificially restrictive, though. Template 1 has you able to do A, B, and C; template 2 has you able to do D, E, and F; but you want to do C and D so you're out of luck. So I very strongly prefer templates as helpful options, but just options.

As for changes to the world, go for it. Even the game changes some things from edition to edition. Better if all the players don't know all the secrets anyway.

You will never not shoot him again after that.



It's less than $10 from BTRC. Really wish he would have an app made for the calculators because my 2016 Excel does not like the old spreadsheet templates.

I've found that true in my experience as well. Very handy for newer players or a table top night where you want to get things rolling quickly.

For more experienced players they can be more of a hindrance.

They tend to be a little over specialized for my taste.

Templates are good for everyone no matter how long you've played GURPS.

Ah, Templates my old nemesis...

As a Player I don't like them, as a GM I use them exclusively these days.  Hypocrisy is my name.

Templates do three things very, very, very well, and are a tremendous hindrance to the biggest reason so many enjoy GURPS.  The three things they do well:  Ease of access for new Players, niche protectionism, and ensure that no PC will be an incompetent Johnny One-Skill weirdo.  What they hinder:  Freedom to create.

Overseer and I are still batting around exactly what we're doing, my suggestion has been for 150 point Templates and 25 and 50 Lenses for 200 point Characters.  Though that was on the idea of "Players will want to make Super Muties, Synths, Ghouls, BoS Knights, etc"... for PCs straight out of the Vault, that might be tempered back to 125 point Templates with 25 point Lenses (for a 150 point PC) with generous exp dumps after each 'mission/chapter' (to get them up to speed), and of course if your PC dies, new options will have become available.

But we're still kickin that can around.  Not gonna lie, I'm 110% for Templates, Lenses, and Options.  When I build Templates I build 'for a niche' (like Doctor, Soldier, Merchant, Scout, Tinkerer, Social Shark, etc) but leave generous amounts of wiggle room for Player individuality (hence also the "150+50 points").

One of my biggest gripes about GURPS Dungeon Fantasy (and the Powered By GURPS boxset) is how useless Thieves are in the game, despite niche protectionism being a core tenant of the Template design, so you can bet I'll be aiming to not make that mistake for you guys.

If anything, I think I would err toward the lower end of points rather than the higher. I find going high tends to make the setting feel easier, which works counter to the world being bleak and dangerous. Yes, I know you can just put more points into opponents and apply more penalties, too. It's more for setting a baseline for normal and maintaining it after experience is gained.

As for your reasons, templates do definitely help beginners. I'm really in favor of niche protection, but I haven't found they do that. Let's take a really different example: classic MMORPGs. It's all about templates and lenses, and you end up with tank - dps - healer; style is different, but niche protection evaporates beyond a tiny number of players. Yes, they do help avoiding one-skill weirdos, but that can be done easily without them, generally just by agreeing not to do it; and I tend to get a more realistic spread of skills without a template. That's why I was suggesting them being optional.

Yes, that useless thief is the kind of thing I was thinking with A,B,C v. D,E,F and wanting to do C,D. It's not that their skills are useless; it's that they're clumped together in a way that doesn't allow much useful to be paired with them.

Having played characters here on RPoL for over 7 years with skills in the 12-14 range, I'm going to let you in on a little secret... the Dice Roller is an unforgiving, cruel, dark RNGesus.

This is the wasteland.  If you're tucked away safe in Diamond City (or the Vault), you're probably rolling skills with no penalties, possibly even bonuses, but outside?  Under stress?  Do you want to make those rolls against a final skill of 12?  Or less?  (As a GM I'd prefer not, and as a Player I'd triply prefer not.)

I prefer the PCs to have their "core competency" skills at 15-16 without beneficial modifiers, their Secondary skills at 12-14, and their "Background/Hobby" skills at 11-12.  Without boosting a 'core skill' Attribute to 16 first...

(That's the fifth thing Templates do, 'Stat Normalize', which is often folded into 'Niche Protection'.)




The Problem with Thief in DF is they do four things really well; two of those things (trap springing and lockpicking) end up being useless (unless the GM specifically includes spaces for them to shine), the other two are covered well by others (in town socializing and scouting, which Bards and Scouts do as well if not better), and they suck in combat.

It's that last one that stings and makes them egregiously, terribly designed.  Even the traditional non-combat professions have interesting things to do in combat (cast spells, heal fallen comrades, point out an enemy's weaknesses while running away like chickens), and DF is about "going into dungeons, kicking in doors, killing monsters, taking their pie".  They are useless in 1/4th of the activities that the game is about, and only do two things better than the other professions (trapspringing and lockpicking), and those two thing are very often ignorable (Is the chest trapped?  The Knight or Barbarian will open it and tank the trap.  Door locked?  That's what Forced Entry is all about.  Oops, can't get past this one area because we don't have a Thief?  Who cares, we go somewhere else, or just go around with magic).  The Template is poorly designed for the genre it's in.

There are ways to fix the profession, but I'm all about learning from that mistake and not replicating it.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:03, Mon 20 June 2022.